Hissatsu: Seigan should reduce enmity

[Kabooa]

Sure. Okay. And that works out. For quick and short fights.

Now let's try fights that actually have a longer duration. Is the damage still negligible?

You can use math all you want by the way...The point is, you are still neglecting your kit to RAISE YOUR DPS. That is why it is seen as "bad samurai play". What's the point in doing low potency attacks that are OGCD? They're pretty negligible too.

Over the course of a 10 minute fight, if we run with the same assumption, then you get 8-10 Seigans.

10 Seigans
150 Kenki
2000 Potency

6 Shintens
150 Kenki
1800 Potency.

On average, approximately 2 extra auto attacks. If we assume that you can get at least 2 a minute, then we go with 20 Seigans and 12 Shintens as outlined above, or about 4 extra auto attacks over 10 minutes. If we assume 100% usage, then it's 8 extra auto attacks over 10 minutes.

If we value auto attacks at 2.5k on average, then over 10 minutes with 100% Seigan usage, you deal an extra 20,000 damage. This Samurai likely has a sustained DPS between 5500 and 5800 over 10 minutes. We will use the lower amount just to make this "look better" for Seigan.

5500 DPS over the course of 10 minutes is 3.3 million damage. 20,000 extra damage over the total of 3.3 million is .6% damage increase for 100% increased usage of Seigan. Someone actively aiming to use Seigan is more likely to hit around 50%, so .3% increase. Add in the potential for it to simply be missed via better priorities (not clipping GCDs, mid Iaijutsu, whatever) and it's more likely to be around a .15-.2% increase.

So effectively you're calling a 99.5% Samurai a baddy.

[Lorielle]

If we run with the same assumption

If we run with pre-designated numbers that will make my argument work in my favor? Nah son. That's not how it works. Because how often Seigan comes in typically falls in line with how much "Unavoidable Damage" there is. If the Samurai is feeling courageous, then Avoidable Damage that won't kill them or detriment them in any way. I didn't pull the "More than one Ageha" out of my rear. You can just look at the top parse for Neo Exdeath and do the numbers yourself.

Again, you're trying to give me numbers, but all you're trying to argue is that "Don't worry about oGCD skills. Their potency are so low that it doesn't really matter."

Feel free to explain why people should NOT do Seigan. You yourself have said it is a DPS gain. Why would you NOT do a DPS gain? Are you choosing to be a bad DPS?

[Kabooa]

Again, you're trying to give me numbers, but all you're trying to argue is that "Don't worry about oGCD skills. Their potency are so low that it doesn't really matter."

Feel free to explain why people should NOT do Seigan. You yourself have said it is a DPS gain. Why would you NOT do a DPS gain? Are you choosing to be a bad DPS?

The numbers I gave you included 100% and 50% Seigan usage.

Unlike Seigan, Shinten's value doesn't diminish by sitting on Kenki so long as you don't overmax. Seigan must be actively pursued to see any sort of tangible benefit from it, and even then if the encounter isn't pumping out reliable raid wide damage, you're not even given the chance to do so. It adds another layer of attention for ultimately negligible gain. You can ignore Seigan altogether and just use Shinten, and the only harm that comes from it is you might not hit #1 on FFLogs.

As I said, it is a negligible gain in damage. For the amount of dancing around it you have to do, it is likely more effective for most players to simply use Shinten. There will be almost no notable loss from doing so.

[Lorielle]

Seigan must be actively pursued to see any sort of tangible benefit

it is likely more effective for most players to simply use Shinten.

Hmm...Be a better DPS or be a lazy Samurai. I believe we have come full circle.

I don't find it hard to hit Third Eye on raid wide damage. It's really not hard. Samurai doesn't take that much attention to do. Remember to pop Third Eye is probably the most I pay attention on Samurai personally save the mechanics of the fight. But hey, this is just me. Not everyone has that ability to have awareness, I understand that. However, it's the small things that separate the below average, to average, to above and to cream of the crop. Seigan usage is one of those things. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sorry. I just can't get behind the idea of telling someone that it's okay to ignore the ability in your kit when it has that potential.

[Kabooa]

Hmm...Be a better DPS or be a lazy Samurai. I believe we have come full circle.

I don't find it hard to hit Third Eye on raid wide damage. It's really not hard. Samurai doesn't take that much attention to do. Remember to pop Third Eye is probably the most I pay attention on Samurai personally save the mechanics of the fight. But hey, this is just me. Not everyone has that ability to have awareness, I understand that. However, it's the small things that separate the below average, to average, to above and to cream of the crop. Seigan usage is one of those things. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sorry. I just can't get behind the idea of telling someone that it's okay to ignore the ability in your kit when it has that potential.

/shrug. There's probably several Samurai who are as effective as you that don't use it.

[Lorielle]

/shrug. There's probably several Samurai who are as effective as you that don't use it.

Oh? I'd like to see it rather than have paper trying to tell me it's the same. If it's hard to pay attention to Seigan and pursue that, I can only imagine how hard it is to manage your buffs and Kenki while Mechanics are going on.

But hey, the top tier Samurai could probably do it...But they won't. Because they know Seigan is a DPS gain and see no reason to forsake it.

[Kabooa]

Oh? I'd like to see it rather than have paper trying to tell me it's the same. If it's hard to pay attention to Seigan and pursue that, I can only imagine how hard it is to manage your buffs and Kenki while Mechanics are going on.

But hey, the top tier Samurai could probably do it...But they won't. Because they know Seigan is a DPS gain and see no reason to forsake it.

Well I mean, some do. Because as I already stated, the loss/gain is so minuscule it only matters at rank 1. And even in those cases, RNG is a larger deciding factor.

[Nominous]

Oh? I'd like to see it rather than have paper trying to tell me it's the same. If it's hard to pay attention to Seigan and pursue that, I can only imagine how hard it is to manage your buffs and Kenki while Mechanics are going on.

But hey, the top tier Samurai could probably do it...But they won't. Because they know Seigan is a DPS gain and see no reason to forsake it.

There's a Samurai who only used Seigan twice in an entire 12 minute Neo Exdeath run and managed to get basically the top damage of all SAM worldwide, so no, it's really not that important at all.


The big thing to remember about Seigan is, while it's more efficient usage of Kenki, it still requires the usage of Kenki. Strictly speaking, unless you can double weave Seigan with another Kenki ability without eating into your GCD, you'll have to make the decision between one or the other. And Seigan is always the weaker of the two options. The idea then, is to pinch pennies through using Seigan (which again, on a use-by-use basis is a DPS loss), so that you can afford to use the saved up Kenki for more abilities in the long run. And... that falls apart mostly because of the maximum gains we can achieve from Kenki per minute, among other things.

Guren is capped to a very specific amount of uses per run, and having extra Kenki 'stocked' from Seigan won't gain you an extra Guren. Only time will. You can gain extra Kaiten uses from your conservative efforts with Seigan, but Kaiten isn't a DPS gain over Shinten unless used on an Iaijutsu, which only come up so often. So you're gated (capped) on Kaiten usage as well. Through that process of elimination, the only thing you get for being conservative through Seigan, is extra Shinten uses, but even then, not necessarily.

Taking that same top SAM's run as an example, you can get a rough amount of total Kenki gained over a fight. Add gains from all of their weaposkill casts (all combo buttons), add in Hagakure casts (assuming 3 Sen for all), add in Ageha and Enpi gains, and subtract out any non-Seigan/Shinten Kenki cost to get the final number of around 2020 Kenki to use on exclusively those two abilities (over 12 minutes).

We can't accurately track Kenki per minute, but, for sake of example, 2020 Kenki/12 minutes comes out to about 168 (rounding down as to not go over the realistic Kenki gained overall). That figure already accounts for all non-Shinten/Seigan Kenki usage. Each minute you can use Seigan 4 times, but realistically, you won't be able to hit Third-Eye with that level of precision without actually hurting your DPS through clipping, so at best, let's say 3 per minute.

With the average of 168 Kenki per minute and 3 realistic Seigan per minute-
-3 Seigan (45 Kenki/600 potency) + 4 Shinten (100 Kenki/ 1200 potency)= 1800 potency.
-2 Seigan (30 Kenki/400 potency) + 5 Shinten (125 Kenki/ 1500 potency)= 1900 potency.
-1 Seigan (15 Kenki/200 potency) + 6 Shinten (150 Kenki/ 1800 potency)= 2000 potency.

Even with all the mental/mathematical gymnastics done to get to these conclusions, it all boils down to the same thing. Since you can't freely use Seigan, it becomes a choice. And the choice is almost always in favor of just leaving it alone.

TL;DR
Unless double-weaved (with no GCD clipping), Seigan (can be) literally a DPS loss when used religiously, if Kenki per minute isn't high enough/in the right place. And for all of that calculation/worry, you could just... not. Literally you would be better off hoping for a couple Direct-Crits to sway your damage than using Seigan and potentially landing on the wrong side of things.

Don't worry about Seigan as far as DPS is concerned.

[Cabalabob]

Looks like this could happen, they’re adding enmity reduction in 4.3 somewhere, but the SAM will have to consider when to use it. Since Seigan uses Kenki it would definitely fit the bill.

[TaiyoShikasu]

In all the times I've done dungeons as a SAM, and even the first time I did the Omega 1-4, I've had no trouble with enmity. I don't use Diversion, sure, but that's cause I've never needed it. I don't know. It's weird. I'm not saying it's not a problem, I'm just saying I might be an outlier.

Although the occasional time I did see myself taking a lot of hate, I would stop attacking for a bit. Not sure if that's a good thing.

Sounds like you're not doing enough damage to generate hate and when you find yourself doing enough damage to generate hate you just stop doing damage.

Neither of which are good.