Built-in Parsers

[HyoMinPark]

You made more assumptions or hand-waves here than I care to shake a stick at. To top it off, you missed a lot of points. Here's a short list of quick responses to your post here:

So, because my points completely disagree with yours, they’re automatically considered assumptions or hand-waves? I went off exactly what you posted, and it sounded very black-and-white in terms of parsers to me. Your repeated use of calling raiders “toxic” and “elitist” didn’t really help your “arguments”, either. All it did was make it sound like one person personally wronged you in the past, and just happened to use a parser to do it.

I felt like I was extremely thorough in my responses to you—hardly the kind of dismissive “hand waves” behavior you’re claiming my responses to be. And while there my be assumptions and inferences in my posts, they are also present in yours.

1) Answering one anecdote with another is not a solid argument. At best, unreliable hearsay versus unreliable hearsay is politics. At worst... let's just not. For that matter, let's not assume everything is an anecdote just because we do not agree with it.

What you have stated is anecdote, unless you have raw data and numbers that can prove people “lord [parsers] over” other players, and that the implementation of a built-in parser in content where it matters will increase the amount of in-game harassment. You cannot do that, just how I cannot quantitatively prove that the harassment in this game via parser isn’t as high as people like to make it out to be, without relying on anecdotal experiences.

I raise to you your same argument: “let’s not assume everything is anecdote just because we do not agree with it.”

2) No, Ultimate has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Adding any actual content is nothing compared to what I'm saying, at all. I'm referring to a QoL level feature that I am opposed to having in-game, but don't mind the right people using in general. (My apologies that you see people cry about Ultimate or the like, for whatever reason, since I like the idea of it)

Then my apologies for thinking that you were speaking on behalf of Ultimate. I suppose you were trying to speak on behalf of a hypothetical situation that the developers were going to put in time and resources into making a built-in parser. However, I still don’t think it would actually take away from patch or expansion content.

To answer your Eureka wonderments, it was delayed for Patch 4.2 because the developers said they were having issues tuning the content. There have been more rumors that it may be delayed again to a 4.2 sub-patch for the same reasons. Same with SB relic stuff (something I’m particularly irked about, because I actually enjoy relic grinds), since it’s tied to Eureka.

3) I'm not saying a parser will be a jerk just for being a parser. Once again, and let me be perfectly clear right here, a parse is a tool. Bad people will use tools for bad reasons. Putting the tool inside of the game sends a signal to some, not all, such bad people that they are getting a thing that they want and thus must be right. Sounds like bad logic, right? The fallacy lies in those same individuals, not in the majority of parsers I have encountered.

You are saying exactly that though: you are assuming that, because a person has access to a parser, that he is going to act like a jerk just because he has such access, as if it’s going to be a direct cause of his jerk-ish-ness. Yes, bad people use tools for bad reasons, but that doesn’t give anyone the right to blame the tool, which is what it appears that you are doing with your posts. You place the blame on the person, not the tool they are using. This argument applies to a certain other...”tool”...that frequently shows up in real-life debates. The only difference now is that you replace the name of that particular other “tool” with “parser.”

If you remove the parser, the said jerk will still be a jerk regardless, just with other tools (we’ll use the vote kick system here as an example). Should the vote kick system be removed because a few people choose to abuse it? No. Because the vast majority do not act like complete twats, and use an in-game feature to do so. I firmly believe that parsers would act the same way. And, if they were limited to content where they actually matter (Ultimate, Savage, Ex trials), and were a toggable feature in PF, if a person doesn’t like the use of parsers, then don’t join a PF advertising parser use. Just like if a person doesn’t like “speed kills”, or a PF with a “minimum ilvl of 340” or something of the like.

4) Yes, there is more to Bard than Refulgent Arrow, just like there is more to the sky than being blue, or to water than being wet.

Then base your argument on how you “feel” you do more damage based on “HP bars” off of more than just Barrage + Refulgent, because that was all I really saw in that paragraph, aside from a mention of PP. The argument in and of itself is not an adequate, quantitative one anyways, and you cannot say with absolute certainty that you quantitatively know how much damage you are doing just by “watching HP bars when I get procs” versus “watching HP bars when I don’t get procs.” Like I said before, your “data” already falls apart because you don’t seem to consider the damage other players are dealing to said HP. So you cannot quantitatively say with absolute certainty that you are outputting sufficent damage without either using a parser, or hand-calculating your damage via Battle Log entries.

5) I'm well aware of theory-crafters. They play the game in their own way. Furthermore, my question was to Señor Deithwen (note: I say that out of respect) specifically since it was he who brought this up to me. Thank you, however, for trying to respond to a question meant for him.

The theorycrafters play this game “in their own way” to help other determined members figure out the best stats, and the best rotations. They are a prime example of using a parser for good, and while you claim to see all sides, you focus only on the bad. Which is why I consider your arguments to be very black and white.

Also, this is a discussion forum. I was unaware that I was not “allowed” to add in my two gil to a point that you clearly seem to be missing. Whether it be from another poster or not. You stated things that I disagreed with and/or found fault with, even if they were directed at another individual. I’m not really trying to explain anything on behalf of another poster—I’m just merely stating why I disagree with the things you have posted here.

6) One more time, because it keeps on getting missed no matter how much I keep saying it, I see the good in some people who use the tool as it stands outside of the game, I see the bad, and I see the gray area in between.

Then perhaps you should work on your debate skills, because a lot of your posts, like I said previously, come off as completely black and white: “parsers are bad”, “bad people will use parsers to harass”, “implementing parsers will give bad elitists the green light to harass the casual players”. Avoid using words just as “toxic” and “elitist”, because they just paint all of your arguments in an extremely negative light. Your arguments do not come off as particularly grey or neutral, in my opinion. You are entitled to your opinion as much as the next poster, but if you really are wanting to put parsers in a neutral light, and then argue against them in said neutrality, don’t use weighted words to try and back up your arguments like you did in one of your first posts in this thread.

[Aster_E]

-snip-

The fact that you're still only seeing the black and white in what I'm saying tells me there is no hope for this discussion. It's not my debate skills that are lacking here, though kudos on your borderline ad hominem. You, and you alone, are picking extremes out of my words that simply aren't there. I don't feel like repeating myself for the umpteenth time in this topic alone since my very clear statement still didn't make it through to you, so I'm going to go continue playing the game in the way I enjoy.

If you want to keep arguing, though, you can go right ahead since all it will do at this point is make you seem confrontational. Have fun.

[HyoMinPark]

The fact that you're still only seeing the black and white in what I'm saying tells me there is no hope for this discussion. It's not my debate skills that are lacking here, though kudos on your borderline ad hominem. You, and you alone, are picking extremes out of my words that simply aren't there. I don't feel like repeating myself for the umpteenth time in this topic alone since my very clear statement still didn't make it through to you, so I'm going to go continue playing the game in the way I enjoy.

If you want to keep arguing, though, you can go right ahead since all it will do at this point is make you seem confrontational. Have fun.

Just the fact that you think I’m personally attacking you when I point out the flaws in your arguments proves there’s no hope for a reasonable discussion between the two of us. Have a wonderful evening.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

The fact that you're still only seeing the black and white in what I'm saying tells me there is no hope for this discussion. It's not my debate skills that are lacking here, though kudos on your borderline ad hominem. You, and you alone, are picking extremes out of my words that simply aren't there. I don't feel like repeating myself for the umpteenth time in this topic alone since my very clear statement still didn't make it through to you, so I'm going to go continue playing the game in the way I enjoy.

If you want to keep arguing, though, you can go right ahead since all it will do at this point is make you seem confrontational. Have fun.

You said:

"No, of course one thing such as an in-game parser is not enough on its own, even as it gives elitists a means to say "This is in the game now, so you better learn to use it!" Can you say in utmost honesty that no such thing will happen?"

This statement posits the notion parses should remain unseen simply due to the off chance they may be abused. If that is to be your stance, you have to equally be against the Vote Kick/Abandon system as it can and is abused. Any argument otherwise would be hypocritical unless you agree tools do not directly correlate towards toxic behavior; i.e someone parsing has no direct bearing on whether they will treat others poorly. Of course, by doing so, your original argument loses all validity. So...

That is but a single example you appear to have missed. Perhaps you shouldn't be throwing around words like hand-wave and ad hominem when you're very much guilty of both.

[Shurrikhan]

This statement posits the notion parses should remain unseen simply due to the off chance they may be abused. If that is to be your stance, you have to equally be against the Vote Kick/Abandon system as it can and is abused. Any argument otherwise would be hypocritical unless you agree tools do not directly correlate towards toxic behavior; i.e someone parsing has no direct bearing on whether they will treat others poorly. Of course, by doing so, your original argument loses all validity. So...

That is but a single example you appear to have missed. Perhaps you shouldn't be throwing around words like hand-wave and ad hominem when you're very much guilty of both.

This.

Note that a Vote Kick can be used to allow friends a quick daily Roulette bonus, at the expense of the replaced member's. Any of various false reasons can be given, but as each reason also lows for an underlying warrant in "difference in playstyle", these are essentially permitted distortions.

Similarly, players can be kicked or berated on the suspicion that their damage is low, where that suspicion may be misplaced. I was recently told that I must be the reason a fight took so long, causing the healer's mana to run out and eventually fail to keep the tank up, because I was third place in enmity, albeit by a small margin. I had been using Diversion and Lucid Dreaming on CD; the other DPS had not once used their Diversion, and when the healer again ran out of mana before the fight was over (despite my giving Mana Shift on CD) and the tank was two-shotted yet again (having used no CDs for a thrice-upgraded tankbuster), I was kicked. These, too, are permitted distortions.

Now, a parser, too, can face skewed evidence if, say, a tank especially inconveniences his party members by requiring what would otherwise be excessive healing or forcing excessive and uptime-costing movement, AND if the players are somehow unaware of the costs of these situations (e.g. if they assume that every fight should reach nearly the same throughput, despite variance in mob count, ST-to-AoE ideal transfer for each job, CD durations relative to pull duration, ramp-up times, etc). But it is at least a way to make things more fair than is presently the case.

A reduction of ambiguity, devaluing assumptions and allowing for informed action, does not equate to toxicity. My own, albeit anecdotal, experience would suggest a reduction in tossed blame.

Consider, why should one person bother to point out that one player is underperforming when ever player already has access to that information. They may as well say "we are currently indoors". The observation becomes meaningless. Any discussion useful to the annoyed player therefore proceeds immediately to analysis: How can the player improve? How can we improve things for that player, and our party as a whole? What do we need to change?

I don't understand why skipping this shroud of scarcely protective obscurity so frightens so many players. It seems to rely on a warrant that every player is somehow unable to smell the smoke just because they're blind to the fire, and that granting vision will mean that they will kick every underperforming player on sight, rather than as needed. I cannot say that this is impossible: it is an action of individuals, after all. But, having played in numerous MMOs with broadly-used parsers nearly since their inceptions, it is incredibly unlikely except in the event that a known DPS check will very clearly stop the party's progression if including the underperforming player, or that this player has clearly snubbed even his or her minimal responsibilities towards the party (to the same result as purposely standing in AoEs or spending a large part of each fight afk).

Seeing how the party is actually performing does not demand a purge of all things below an arbitrary value. Rather, it tends to forfeit tossed blame or gradual enmity in allowing more convenient observation and analysis. I've lost count of how many time I've increased a player's DPS by a third or more over the course of between-GCDs typed advice, just as I've lost count of how many players will answer "if the fight will last for more than a single combo, you may want to use Heavy Thrust for its damage bonus" with "*** off". The latter will still be anyone's right, but at least player B won't be threatening a ban just because I'm teaching player A with reflection on each pull: the data's already there, and players need not be afraid to know as if knowing were some type of blinding nudity.

[RiyahArp]

I don't understand why skipping this shroud of scarcely protective obscurity so frightens so many players.

People don't want raiding culture to spread to the rest of the game. Raiders treat this game like a job, and the fun they get out of it is like the fun people get out of a job. But the negative aspects of raiding are similar to the negative aspects of a job. If that spreads to casual content, well, people who treat this game as something they do to relax and not something they do to work at in order to gain status won't be happy with the change.

[akaneakki]

Raiders treat this game like a job.

Speak for yourself please. I work 8 hours a day with 3 hours total after work spending at a place eating food and hitting gym. This is 5 times a week then you honestly think we treat it as a second job? Have you seen all the non raiders threating yoshida to unsub because they can't have a digital house? Have you seen all these threats when a glam they want is on chinese/korean client but they gonna say I will stop my sub now...?
Or the people who actually make 100000 pages of a digital butt on a character? I could go on all day but honestly most pro raiders have jobs too and also this is why most wouldn't even or couldnæt even go harder since they couldn't anymore due to work. You come in here and talk like you actually have done content that requires dps but you clearly havent and mostlikely wont in a long time. Stop making up things will ya. Yet to see people threating yoshida stop playing the game because there are no parser. The irony when anti parser talk about toxic acts hah.

[RiyahArp]

Speak for yourself please. I work 8 hours a day with 3 hours total after work spending at a place eating food and hitting gym. This is 5 times a week then you honestly think we treat it as a second job?

Treating it like a job isn't necessarily meaning putting in long hours, though if you raid I really doubt raiders are putting in less than 15-20 on the game total per week, and maybe more. It means you view it in the same ways you view work and talk about it like work. Your concern is with performance, compensation, attendance, giving proper notice when leaving, relative status, and people not pulling their weight. I mean, imagine a game of Monopoly where people talk about "Welfare free parking" or people slacking because they don't auction properties if the person landing on them doesn't buy them.

It's a change in mindset, and to be honest not a particularly good one.

[Shurrikhan]

People don't want raiding culture to spread to the rest of the game. Raiders treat this game like a job, and the fun they get out of it is like the fun people get out of a job. But the negative aspects of raiding are similar to the negative aspects of a job. If that spreads to casual content, well, people who treat this game as something they do to relax and not something they do to work at in order to gain status won't be happy with the change.

What part of raiding culture?

Heck, which raiding culture?

There's a huge spectrum from committed progression groups to your average raider, to even your more casual raider beyond that.

The only commonality you'll find across all groups of raiders is that they find reason enough to raid for approximately as many hours as they do (some days seeming not quite worth it, and some days leaving them wanting more).

These are not some distinct set of players. Those who progress more quickly are usually spend more effective time raiding (this including the quality of said time, such as how logical their approach to the challenge is and how focused and free from or resistant to negatively-affecting stress they are during its execution), as with almost every task in life, but just as not all remote plane hobbyists are aeronautical engineers, not all raiders go about raiding like a profession, let alone experts therein.

[Baingoleth]

Since ACT can listen on any network interface, couldn't a PS4 user set up internet connection sharing on a windows computer, connect their PS4 through that computer and just run ACT that way? I don't have a PS4 but it's something a resourceful PS4 user might want to try.