PVP Rank and PVP Experience Change

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

You get unique mounts for a certain number of wins in feast and each frontline modes, you get to buy five sets of gear from wolf marks, with another set that you could get from seal rock, and the recent frontline and feast modes all have a mount available for so many wins. There are several unique minions and orchestrion rolls you can only get from pvping. It's not like there are no rewards.

It's less an issue of no rewards, but an issue of lengthy amounts of time without any new rewards.

The Original ADS mount has been around since Secure was new, requires 200 wins with the same GC, and the achievement tells it wrong: If you were to get 199 wins with the Flames then switch to Adders, your next win counts as 1/200. You don't lose progress on the Flames, but the number doesn't go up til you go back.

The Field Commander's Set is a nice reward to show how much you've won in Seal Rock. . . if only people were more apt to play it.

The materia vendor at the Wolves' Den Pier STILL had the useless materia from the original Wolves' Den arena (The Fold) until 4.0. He still currently only has 2 songs and the cheerleader minion, which is untradable, thus once you have one, you'll never buy one again.

It's been almost a year and a half, and Shatter is STILL the newest mode in Frontlines. Slaughter was just unceremoniously removed, and Secure sat through all of Heavensward, abandoned at level 50. So long in fact, only veteran PvPers even know what it is or how to play it.

As far as PvP gear goes, we got new sets in 3.0, then 3.25, then finally Garo in 3.5, always below the current endgame PvE item levels (so they couldn't even serve as filler gear), and all of it still with the dead Morale stat. With gear being purely glamour now, you'd think they'd be more willing to add more with major update patches.

It goes without saying if PvE content had this kind of sporadic support, players would be quite enraged. SE's terrible double standard rears its ugly head again.

[Geryth]

It's less an issue of no rewards, but an issue of lengthy amounts of time without any new rewards.

+1 to everything here, but especially this part.

Mounts and Titles DO work to get players playing the mode, but when you only add glamour gear, mounts, and titles once in a blue moon, once they are earned the players abandon the mode.

SE needs some kind of replayability incentive. Adding XP to PvP was a huge step in the right direction for replayability, but the problem with it is that it really only entices players who are bored with the standard PvE ways to level or for the small subset of players that really prefer and enjoy PvP over PvE. For a semi-casual player like me, filling out my challenge log takes the entire week and doing all the different tasks breaks up the monotony, so if I was PvE focused I still wouldn't have any reason to PvP for XP.

If PvP doesn't have progression gear (I'm glad it doesn't) and PvP can't be used to gear for PvE (or vice versa), then vanity rewards are all you have left. I think SE needs to find a clever way to add repeatable rewards to PvP to keep players in the mode once they get their shiny vanity rewards. I do believe the fact that PvP offers end game tome gear fills in that gap a bit, but it would help if PvP were to offer unique crafting recipes/mats/housing. Housing is a huge part of the game, I guarantee housing rewards will pull players into PvP.

[Wintersandman]

I do believe the fact that PvP offers end game tome gear fills in that gap a bit, but it would help if PvP were to offer unique crafting recipes/mats/housing.

Tome gear is only worth something if you PvE. I just finished Lakshmi in the story and I already have 6 70's almost 8. I have had the ADS mounts and the Garo mounts for months. I am spend my wolf marks on 210 gear just to get gc seals. I enjoy PvP and that is my end game but it is the red headed step child for SE. I agree with everything ThirdChild said with the exception the gear additions were only for glamour again and worthless in PvP. And for someone who only PVP's enough to fill out their challenge log weekly it is kind of a slap in the face when you don't want gear progression. You frankly just admitted you don't invest the time and there for want to be on a level playing field.


Imagine in PvE if stats didn't matter and you could walk in as a snowman and all it required was skill to do your job. I can walk into a dungeon be better skilled than someone and do less dps for the sheer fact my gear is lower. I can not get invited to groups for the sheer fact I don't meet a certain ilvl. So what you deem acceptable for PvE you deem unacceptable for PvP.

[Geryth]

Imagine in PvE if stats didn't matter and you could walk in as a snowman and all it required was skill to do your job. I can walk into a dungeon be better skilled than someone and do less dps for the sheer fact my gear is lower. I can not get invited to groups for the sheer fact I don't meet a certain ilvl. So what you deem acceptable for PvE you deem unacceptable for PvP.

Absolutely. PvE and PvP are different and I agree with different rule sets and standards. Progression is appropriate for PvE, I don't think it's needed for PvP.

PvP is a million times harder than PvE. You can put in all the mechanics you want into PvE - it doesn't matter. Learn the patterns, memorize what buttons to push, and you win. I used to raid hard core in WoW back in Vanilla. Fantastic fun at the time, some of the most gaming fun I've ever had. But progression raiding became boring because all it does is test how well you can dance the routine, and after so many routines, meh - it feels like work after a while.

But PvP is different. Outside of trying to time your burst and follow the few map mechanics, what's happening can be unpredictable. And you're testing your skill against other players, not a computer algorithm. The reward of winning feels better in that sense. I've always loved PvP more than PvE for a very long time for this reason. And because it is person against person, removing gear from the equation makes perfect sense to me. I like to win because I came with better strategy and made less mistakes, not because I hit harder. Winning because of a gear advantage feels like a crutch and not an accomplishment. That's where PvE is totally different. You beat the content once and then it's been beat. Sure you do it over and over and as you get more gear it gets easier, but after the first time the task is done. PvP is a constant competition - if you beat me today then I'm trying harder to beat you tomorrow. I don't like living in a world where "you beat me today, tomorrow, and for the next three weeks, until I can scrounge my points together to finally get the gear to give you a challenege" or inversely "I'm going to knock your head in with my gear for weeks on end until you catch up or give up". That's just not fun to me.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

That kind of gear advantage went away the moment Frontlines was introduced. Item level syncs were introduced, and largely so long as you were at the sync level (something people apparently struggled with, but that's a fault of their own), you were fine. There were subtleties, naturally. Min/maxing stats using older/easy to acquire PvE gear I was able to have roughly 10.5K HP (high for a DPS back then). This was perhaps obtained with one tank accessory (accuracy didn't matter for the most part), but it also guaranteed I could survive an 8K melee LB (or a double caster LB, which hit much harder then).

There was no grind to building my PvP gearset. By the end of the 3.x era, I was just using my old Lore gear, and some Gordias accessories I pulled off my retainer, and largely for the secondary stats. If anyone knows their job and their favored secondaries in PvE, you were already halfway there for PvP. I understand gear and stats were largely removed to facilitate leveling players, but gear advantages really weren't an issue at all. I did just fine even before I optimized my gearset.

[Wintersandman]

Snip

You have the same chance to get the gear that I do. Where you choose to invest you time is your choice. For the sheer fact you don't like doing gear progression in PvP I don't like doing in PvE. It is the same thing. If I decide to complete the story I have weeks of grinding before i can scrounge enough tomes together before I can join you or be able to get invited. There is the contradiction you present. You say PvE is the same dance and is boring. It is the exact reason I PvP.

SB release would have been a perfect time to release gear. As it would have reset everything for everyone to the same base level. For those who pvp'ed they may have had some extra tomes but for those who didn't would start off from zero just as I am starting off from zero in PvE.

Also quit treating PvP as it is a 1v1 contest because it rarely is.

[Zojha]

Progression is appropriate for PvE, I don't think it's needed for PvP.

And MOBAs ask: Why not both? They just cram the entire progression process into one game's length and then reset to give you aaall the goodies of progressing, getting stronger and two-shotting people with that gear while at the same time, keeping a level playing field, because the progression is skill based and on a per-game basis.

And a fun side fact: LoL just recently introduced their first proper PvE mode, after like 8 years. Talk about red-headed stepchild!

[RiyahArp]

The rewards are plenty for the amount of modes we have in the game. And if I remember how you lot complained about Garo newbies and botters, any more rewards would probably have you beg SE to remove them after a month. This isn't a hardcore progression/competitive PvP game, and you need to get used to that. The more they try to fit PvP into that kind of mode, the worse it gets.

[Geryth]

snipe

Yes, I have a post sometime in 2015 where I was bouncing ideas on how to maximize my HP for surviving LB's and cometeor spam before AoE's had diminishing returns, and whether sacrificing STR for more VIT was worth it. Level syncing was their first approach at removing the gear barrier from PvP. Honestly I was fine with that even. It was perhaps still a bit annoying to figure out and obtain BIS but BIS was hardly different than anything else that hit the level sync thresholds.

FFXIV hasn't ever had PvP gear progression like WoW had it, and I hope it never does. If it's well implemented it can be okay, but I just don't see it working in well FFXIV.

If I decide to complete the story I have weeks of grinding before i can scrounge enough tomes together before I can join you or be able to get invited. There is the contradiction you present. You say PvE is the same dance and is boring. It is the exact reason I PvP.

I don't know - I just really like progression PvE. In fact, I really disliked WoW's lazy progression route of simply retuning the exact same content as "hard mode" with recolored skins on the gear. Like wut? Back in Vanilla you had to step through Molten Core to have a chance in Blackwing Lair to have a chance in Ahn'Qiraj to have a chance in Naxxramas. And then after the latest and greatest was out for a while, they'd add filler dungeons like Zul'Gurub and Ahn'Qiraj lite. I really like that model. And I see no problem with that at all - you can't do the Naxxramas dance until you mastered the Ahn'Qiraj dance.

PvP is just...different. There's no new boss to beat for the new gear - there's no new content to triumph over. It's the same players in the same PvP maps. So progression in a thematic way also just doesn't make sense for PvP. There's no new threat that I need to be more powerful to overcome. PvP is just a never-ending contest. Which on paper sounds boring but it's really fun.

I mean I'm not entirely disagreeing you - I admitted that progression PvP has it's merits (getting stronger is the best kind of reward for any kind of RPG). I just prefer player against player to be a battle of strategy and skill rather than a battle of whoever has spent more time PvP'ing. I think at this point we're talking in circles just disagree, and that's perfectly fine.

And MOBAs ask: Why not both? They just cram the entire progression process into one game's length and then reset to give you aaall the goodies of progressing, getting stronger and two-shotting people with that gear while at the same time, keeping a level playing field, because the progression is skill based and on a per-game basis.

That's interesting because I also delved into the competitive DOTA scene way back when DOTA was new. I also didn't like items and recipes that much back then either. Heroes of the Storm is actually favorite MOBA now because I don't have to worry about crafting items and killing my own minions ot deny experience. Maybe that's more to do with my MOBA tastes being more casual now than competitive but I digress.

The problems with in-game gold and getting XP denied was that it killed any kind of come-back chances. If you got behind in gold and especially behind in XP then the game would snow-ball away from you - matches were usually decided early in the game and the mid and late game seemed like wasted time hoping the opponent would some egregious mistake. XP deny is a mechanic that is skill-based, but it's just not fun to do or play against (I was good at it but it was such a bore and chore to micro-manage the health of my own minions in my lane).

It's just like the problem with progression PvP gear, just confined into a single game. Gear out-skilled and then out-geared and then be a punching bag for the last 10-15 minutes of the game.

[Wintersandman]

Back in Vanilla you had to step through Molten Core to have a chance in Blackwing Lair to have a chance in Ahn'Qiraj to have a chance in Naxxramas. And then after the latest and greatest was out for a while, they'd add filler dungeons like Zul'Gurub and Ahn'Qiraj lite. I really like that model. And I see no problem with that at all - you can't do the Naxxramas dance until you mastered the Ahn'Qiraj dance.

I am not saying I dislike it. I am playing devils advocate to illustrate my point. I did Vanilla WoW as well and remember doing everything but Naxx. It does make sense and it was fun.

But remember the Warlord title? I do and it was something that people strived for. It unlocked a specific amount of gear that you could buy while you had the title. But even if you came across a warlord you could still stomp them into the ground even if they had better gear. Of course you may not want to catch them 1v1 but PvP is group play and its all about strategy. Premades are what sucked. You could be a warlord and go up against a premade in any of the modes and get utterly crushed. FFXIV is the same way. It is about the team and not the individual so even including gear progression wouldn't necessarily change anything. Because a solid team could take down someone who outgears them.

The rewards are plenty for the amount of modes we have in the game.

Only someone who doesn't PvP often would say this. There are not enough rewards in the game. I would have had the new SB gear in a week if it was actually worth glamouring or had merit. But it doesn't. I accumulate anywhere from 40-60k wolf marks a week and it goes to waste on GC seals because there is literally nothing else to do with them.