The Case For or Against Cross-World Dungeons

[Sorel]

Is Producer/Director Yoshida's plan to implement cross-world dungeons a good idea? What are the positive benefits? What are the negative repercussions?

I've been asking myself these questions for the last couple weeks. My MMO instincts tell me that this is a bad idea. My personal friends who play World Of Warcraft tell me that it ruined that game for them. The few comments that I have seen on these forums on the subject seem to be violently negative.

But I feel like I'm only getting half of the story. Producer/Director Yoshida seems to be very much in favor of this system, but he doesn't really explain why, or demonstrate what the gameplayer will gain when such a system is implemented. Can anyone in the community see any merit for implementing cross-world dungeons?

I'm looking to start an open and honest discussion taking both sides of the argument into account. But if we can't figure out any positive benefit for cross-world servers, then we need to let Producer/Director Yoshida know in no uncertain terms that we do not want it implemented.

[DNO]

I do NOT want to look for a party for hours....

If this is ANYWAY sovles the horrid that was ff11 in this matter then DOOOO ETTTT!!!!.

/thread

[Sorel]

I do NOT want to look for a party for hours....

If this is ANYWAY sovles the horrid that was ff11 in this matter then DOOOO ETTTT!!!!.

/thread

Let me be more specific. A cross-world dungeon system needs a Cross-World Queue or Cross-World Lobby system in order to facilitate the formation of parties.

My question is ... why does it have to be cross-world?? What is the added in player benefit of making it cross-world instead of keeping it native-world?

[Jennestia]

I do NOT want to look for a party for hours....

If this is ANYWAY sovles the horrid that was ff11 in this matter then DOOOO ETTTT!!!!.

/thread

This was solved in FFXI by making your own party.

Let me be more specific. A cross-world dungeon system needs a Cross-World Queue or Cross-World Lobby system in order to facilitate the formation of parties.

My question is ... why does it have to be cross-world?? What is the added in player benefit of making it cross-world instead of keeping it native-world?

It was done in WoW therefore people feel it should be in every MMO. The only interaction that would be left is within Cities and Dungeon Lobbies (if these even exist with cross-world) which means communities of the specific server would cease to exist. You'll still have your linkshell this is true, but you won't ever be able to say "Oh you're from Trabia? Me too, do you know of x? S/he is one of the nicest people around!" because all interaction would be with people outside of your world that honestly won't matter to you.

So the benefit: More people to do dungeons with.
The downfall: Everything else.

[AngryNixon]

This was solved in FFXI by making your own party.



It was done in WoW therefore people feel it should be in every MMO. The only interaction that would be left is within Cities and Dungeon Lobbies (if these even exist with cross-world) which means communities of the specific server would cease to exist. You'll still have your linkshell this is true, but you won't ever be able to say "Oh you're from Trabia? Me too, do you know of x? S/he is one of the nicest people around!" because all interaction would be with people outside of your world that honestly won't matter to you.

So the benefit: More people to do dungeons with.
The downfall: Everything else.

A giant barrel full of dead rotting red herrings. Some content requires bodies, not necessarily conversation about John Doe on your server. If a substantially reduced wait time means I party with people from other servers and maybe give up a trivial interaction where I'm asking the people in the party if they have heard of X and how nice they are, who cares?

"All interaction..." and "everything else" are so wildly exagerated as to be ridiculous.

You also succeeded in completely neglecting WoW's guild system that promotes guild play through guild achievements (that have tangible benefits to the guild and not just titles).

Nothing is stopping you from being xenophobic and forming your own party exclusively comprised of people on your server.

The cross-world system shortens the amount of time people spend waiting for things to happen. This is in keeping with SE's aim to make this game more time-conscious player friendly. From personal experience in WoW, if done properly, it works just fine. People still converse among other people on their server, they still play with friends, and when they want to just do some content, they cue up and do it. The world goes on.

[Jennestia]

Nothing is stopping you from being xenophobic

Hmm..

so wildly exagerated as to be ridiculous.

Preferring to play with your own server community doesn't make you xenophobic, though you should know what exaggeration means.

[TinnySnips]

Let me be more specific. A cross-world dungeon system needs a Cross-World Queue or Cross-World Lobby system in order to facilitate the formation of parties.

My question is ... why does it have to be cross-world?? What is the added in player benefit of making it cross-world instead of keeping it native-world?

I imagine it will be a cross-world queue. The reason that cross-world is necessary is a matter of player volume. The more people in the queue, the quicker you will be matched. I hope they offer a same-world only checkbox for those that have these concerns, or that it's programmed in a way that has a preference for same-world matching. One of the problems that this causes is that people suddenly become jerks when they are surrounded by people they will likely never play with again. Having some people from your world in the group keeps everyone honest.

[Katella_Avenlea]

Let me be more specific. A cross-world dungeon system needs a Cross-World Queue or Cross-World Lobby system in order to facilitate the formation of parties.

My question is ... why does it have to be cross-world?? What is the added in player benefit of making it cross-world instead of keeping it native-world?

Because as time goes on and servers get saturated with level capped players, new players won't have many on their server who want to do the initial content. Not every new player wants to be quickly ran through content by a level 50. Some like to enjoy the content on its own merit actually fighting their way through it with a team at the appropriate level.

I had this issue in FFXI, I started later in the game and our server was established to the point that most people had multiple capped levels and were busy with dynamis and other things. We'd spend hours shouting for help on something that everyone had already done. I for one am very for this idea. I no longer have time to wait 4 hours to put a party together for a Chains of Promathia-type run, and I don't think that just because I have real life duties that limit my time, that I don't deserve to get the chance. I paid for the game too.

I don't see anything wrong with the cross-world idea. If there are 4 players spread out between 4 different servers, but want to do the same content right now.. why shouldn't they have the opportunity? Just because they aren't on the same server? In truth it's really not much different than a pick-up party that we've all had. You don't know those people generally either. If anything I wouldn't mind meeting players from other servers.

[Blarp]

Let me be more specific. A cross-world dungeon system needs a Cross-World Queue or Cross-World Lobby system in order to facilitate the formation of parties.

My question is ... why does it have to be cross-world?? What is the added in player benefit of making it cross-world instead of keeping it native-world?

For a historical reference, look at Rift. They tried exactly that; server-specific LFG, and the amount of time spent in the queue became too long. The downside to cross server LFG is that it erodes server community a bit. The upside is that you can log on and get involved almost immediately. It gives more people a chance to see more content at the expense of community cohesion on a server.

I think cross server LFG is great. In WoW, I still talked and did things with people from my server regularly. I met people (from my server and others) I wouldn't have otherwise met. Now, you can even invite people you've met cross server and go do an instance with them. I got to participate in more content without having to yell for a group for an hour. The only downside, for me, is running into the occasional asshat, but I've run into plenty of them on my server as well.

[Rutelor]

I do NOT want to look for a party for hours....

If this is ANYWAY sovles the horrid that was ff11 in this matter then DOOOO ETTTT!!!!.

/thread

Are you sure a plus is not two minuses in disguise? We cannot approach such a fundamental change assuming simplistic, half-glimpsed, perceptions. I commend the OP for bringing this point up without sensationalism. I have played both DAoC and WoW and saw negative consequences to the implementation of cross-world grouping.

In most innovations that sound sweet in prospect, the advantages are glaring, but the disadvantages are not as evident. What cross-world grouping did for WoW was further propel the game towards the hang-at-the-hub-and-only-move-to-gank end of the spectrum. It's condensed by this player, whom I quote, from the WoW official forums. He starts by claiming (perhaps inaccurately) that WoW has ceased to be a real MMO. But read on:

Simply stated. How is it not a MMO? The, game, in it's current state rewards a player by staying holded up in a capital city and queueing up for a cross-server dungeon or cross-server battleground. Yes, players can do this outside of the cities, but why would they if the auction house and class trainers are nearby?

The game went from a persistant, open-ended world in the beginning of classic WoW to a glorified chat lobby by the time ToC went live during WotLK. Cross-server pve and pvp solved the problems of long queues for battlegrounds and gave players a chance to do dungeons without having to manually form a group in chat. But I believe by doing this, it ripped away a core element from WoW which makes it a true MMO.

The ability to log in and run into groups of players while farming mats, questing, summoning other players in front of a dungeon or raid, waiting for the next battleground to commence, roleplaying, or just simply hanging out. The possibilities were nearly limitless before players were given the ability to queue up for instanced pvp and cross-realm dungeons. Nowadays, players seldom venture beyond the vincinity of Stormwind or Orgrimmar. Some roleplayers still hang out in other zones, but for the most part: the "world" of warcraft is dead or is being read it's last rites.

To further segregate players from one another on their server is flying mounts. Before they were implemented in BC, players were given the ability to travel faster then going on foot while at the same time keeping players grounded to the world they lived in. Once flying mounts were introduced, it encouraged players to skip the vast majority of the world except to quickly farm some mats, complete a quest objective, kill another player, and then swoop away.

(Full disclosure: There were plenty of negative replies to this posting in the WoW forums. Perhaps the poster's mistake was to attack the changes by claiming that they made the game less of an MMO, which is not a fact. That doesn't detract from the good points he strikes.)

One of the great achievements of early MMORPGs like Everquest, Early WoW and FFXI was the establishment of infrastructures on which communities thrived, and within which fantasy was brought close to us when these fancy-worlds started behaving in anthropologically identifiable manner.

Then, in the desperate search for convenience and expeditiousness, eager to satisfy the crowd's mindless craving for no-effort gratification, developers have followed the path of Western Culture's ditching of cultural heirlooms for the speed and insipidity of supermarkets and fast food. Moving around the game world, which used to be a cause for wonder, is now an inconvenience. Establishing ties to a community and keeping civility and cooperation so that we could thrive together is now a pain in the arse, something to be seen as a monumental hurdle on the race to "FUN."

Games might have changed to adapt to the minimum common denominator in order to become more profitable, and in doing so, they might have earned the applause of the headless masses. I for one, will miss the structured world-on-a-soap-bubble feel that careful structuring and balance brought to the classic games. Now, if that could be kept while also ushering in the innovations...!!! That's a call to greatness, for Yoshida to follow.

R