4.1 Dark Knight Feedback and fixes

[Kabooa]

IR is intended with zerk, but zerk also stands alone. Delirium is designed to work with BW, but BW stands alone on its own merits as well. Why not include the entirety of the BW you extend by that logic?

For the sake of the argument

Delirium + Blood Weapon is 23 seconds of 10% increased attack speed and 480 MP on hit

Plunge and Carve and Spit line up with it so there's no reason not to include them.

So with good latency and timing, you get up to 11 GCDs and about 9 auto attacks. (+1 GCD and +1 Auto attack as opposed to Blood Weapon not being active)
20 hits of 480 MP is 9600 or enough for 4 Dark Arts, 560 potency. One of these will be converted into Carve and Spite, which is +210 over the standard conversion

So 420 + 350.

Both Plunge and Carve and Spit add +480 for being used under blood weapon, so +56 potency worth of MP.

420 + 350 + 56 = 826 worth of potency via MP from the Dark Arts utilized during Delirium.
One extra GCD, averaging 230 via the Soul Eater Combo
One extra auto attack, averaging 100 via auto attack potency.

66 blood, using Crater's conversion ratio of 2.69 which is ~177.5, but Blood spiller has to fit in somewhere so, putting it in the extra GCD would be about +130 over what the average Soul Eater combo gives, so that 'extra GCD potency' is 360 if you factor it being Blood Spiller.

Which adds up to 1286 during a Blood Weapon Delirium window. This does not include the MP gained from Siphon, the blood gained from Soul eater as these are independent from both Delirium and Blood Weapon.

If we remove Carve and Spit's better conversion ratio as it is technically not influenced by Delirium, then the total drops down to 1076.
If we remove Plunge / Carve and Spit's MP returns since they generally aren't saved for Delirium anyways, that drops down to 1020.

[Aana]

For the sake of the argument

(Math including BW)

While I appreciate the effort, this is the fundamental problem:

Just since we're on the topic of Delirium, I got a little bored earlier and did a bit of comparison between the new offensive buffs that each tank got:

From Stormblood to Heavensward, each tank got an additional offensive buff skill; WAR got Inner Release, PLD got Requiescat, DRK got Delirium. Let's look at the overall effectiveness of each, in terms of how much potency they add over time.

A: It glosses over the fact that the jobs fundamentally changed. Each got '1 more' offensive buff. That doesn't make it equal. They changed zerk. They changed FoF. They changed combos. THey killed scourge/frac. They changed salted earth. They changed Darkside. They changed how many stacks you can have, how your MP works. It sets up a false comparison. "Each tank got 1 new shiny! So lets see how they compare!"

(numbers numbers numbers)

Delirium needs to be literally four times as strong as it is right now.

It now uses that false comparison to justify a 400% buff to an ability.

That. Is. Bad. Reasoning.

This isn't an anti X job. Its just bad.

The numbers have been posted repeatedly showing that drk is 5-7ish% overall damage behind. We don't need apples to orange comparisons for random buffs. We already know how far behind drk is on the whole. Quadrupling abilities because a different job that works in a different manner has a strong skill out of context just makes no sense.

[Chrono_Rising]

IR is intended with zerk, but zerk also stands alone. Delirium is designed to work with BW, but BW stands alone on its own merits as well. Why not include the entirety of the BW you extend by that logic?

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The reason you don't include the entire blood weapon is because blood weapon has no interaction with delirium beyond the 8 seconds added. If I press delirium at the first or last second of a blood weapon buff I still get the same 8 seconds. If Delirium interacted by augmenting the entire blood weapon window then we would need to include it.

You are right that these are two stand alone skills, but Inner Release and berserk do interact and augment each other. The "extra" gauge from Inner Release is less if we don't push berserk, but the whole idea is to be sure that both skills are active at the same time to maximize the extra potency from Inner Release.

I get what you are saying about vacuum comparisons, we would need to isolate each skill and put it together in a way that they can be compared. Someone has already done this, mapping out ideal rotations in excel sheets mapping everything down to the GCD and even went so far as to include dps buffs from the party. Warrior is ahead of dark knight based on a three minute breakdown. Paladin is also ahead of dark knight. The difference is about ten potency per second on the low end. People are trying to assign potency to each skill to see where the major drop off is, and comparing buffs is one way of looking for differences. Supportive quote below from the post in question:

...

Is this a case where "you have to look at the whole kit, not just compare one skill to another!"? No, it is not: A) DRK is worse than the other tanks at everything, so exactly which part of "the whole kit" is supposed to make up for this deficiency? And B) If you "look at the whole kit", then Shake it Off was perfectly fine as a near-useless personal Esuna, and never needed a change - and yet it was buffed into an extremely powerful skill, solely because "It's a new Stormblood skill, it should be powerful!"



Delirium needs to be literally four times as strong as it is right now.

If you work out the potency per second of Crater's suggestion buffing delirium but about 1200 potency every two minutes, it comes out to be about 10 potency per second which actually is what we are missing dps wise. I get that "make this 4 times larger" sounds like a massive buff, but it actually works out.

[Kabooa]

The numbers have been posted repeatedly showing that drk is 5-7ish% overall damage behind. We don't need apples to orange comparisons for random buffs. We already know how far behind drk is on the whole. Quadrupling abilities because a different job that works in a different manner has a strong skill out of context just makes no sense.

Just for fun, if Delirium was '400%' its current values. (Blood weapon +32, MP restore 9600)

Delirium + blood weapon is 47 seconds of 10% increased attack speed, and 480 MP on hit, while returning a netgain of 7200 MP
You will be able to fit two plunges and one Carve and Spit into this window

You will be able to fit approximately 21 GCDs and 17 Auto Attacks if done well with good latency, about +2 GCDs and +1 Auto Attacks.

You get 38 hits of 480 MP, which is 18,240 MP or 7.6 dark arts, or about 1064 Potency.
+3 Dark Arts from using Delirium for 7200 MP: +420
One dark arts will be used for Carve and Spit, which is +210 over the normal conversion.
Two plunges and one Carve and Spit will add three hits of 480, for +84 potency.
Total potency from MP: 1694
Two extra GCDs: Averaging 233 from Soul Eater is +466
One extra Auto Attack: +100
Blood: 114, at Crater's ratio, ~306.66. however, for practical purposes, these two bloodspillers will fit into the Extra GCDs at a ratio of +130 over the listed value.

This comes out to: 2520 + 38 from leftover blood.

[Kabooa]

If you work out the potency per second of Crater's suggestion buffing delirium but about 1200 potency every two minutes, it comes out to be about 10 potency per second which actually is what we are missing dps wise. I get that "make this 4 times larger" sounds like a massive buff, but it actually works out.

I think you could just remove the crit bonus from Deliverance and that window Warrior jumps ahead by would shrink to well within acceptable margins.

I mean, acceptable to people. Mathematically speaking, it's pretty acceptable now, it's just lacking in other areas that makes it such a sore point.

[Chrono_Rising]

Generally I am against nerfing other people’s classes, bring us up to them, not bring them down to us.

[Aana]

The reason you don't include the entire blood weapon is because blood weapon has no interaction with delirium beyond the 8 seconds added. If I press delirium at the first or last second of a blood weapon buff I still get the same 8 seconds. If Delirium interacted by augmenting the entire blood weapon window then we would need to include it.

You are right that these are two stand alone skills, but Inner Release and berserk do interact and augment each other. The "extra" gauge from Inner Release is less if we don't push berserk, but the whole idea is to be sure that both skills are active at the same time to maximize the extra potency from Inner Release.

I get what you are saying about vacuum comparisons, we would need to isolate each skill and put it together in a way that they can be compared. Someone has already done this, mapping out ideal rotations in excel sheets mapping everything down to the GCD and even went so far as to include dps buffs from the party. Warrior is ahead of dark knight based on a three minute breakdown. Paladin is also ahead of dark knight. The difference is about ten potency per second on the low end. People are trying to assign potency to each skill to see where the major drop off is, and comparing buffs is one way of looking for differences.

If you work out the potency per second of Crater's suggestion buffing delirium but about 1200 potency every two minutes, it comes out to be about 10 potency per second which actually is what we are missing dps wise. I get that "make this 4 times larger" sounds like a massive buff, but it actually works out.

Of couese. IR was obviously designed with zerk in mind. But if you apply half of all zerks to the IR window then you need to discount zerk when you later 1v1 zerk vs FoF vs BW. And then do similar weirdness as you go along with each ability keeping track of when its interacting and when its not to get 'fair' values. Do you include the IR when you later compare zerk/FoF/BW and inflate zerk in that comparison as well? Or say 'nah it already got counted for IR'. People wont do that. They will just 1v1 everything picking and choosing the interactions that help their argument. Ammunition for fighting on sand foundations.

The size of the buff isn't what I have issue with. Its just the relativity of the buffs to unrelated items. You can pluck out individual skills from another class, set it next to a 'similar' skill in your class and 'prove' you need a buff. Even if drk did more damage than war right now, you could draw the same conclusion on IR vs delirium because its not looking at the whole picture.

Drk is behind, as everyone and their dog knows. If that ~5+% works out to 10pot/gcd (I'll take your word for it), then start with that. Don't start with IR in arbitrary comparisons.

*Drk is -5% damage behind other tanks (in offense stats) while also suffereing behind lower mitigation+less powerful/reliable utility.
*That 5% works out to about 10pot/gcd
*Therefore I propose a 4x buff to delirium which comes out to (mathmathmath) ~10pot/gcd bridging the gap between tanks.
*(Insert community commenting on the aesthetics/class theme, tweaking math/fixing errors/pointing out overlooked aspects. Counter proposal of buffing X instead to get 10pot/gcd. Etc)
*yay internet!

Instead of:
*Drk: WAR IR OP its 4x more than Delirium! Make delirium 4x stronger!"
*War: Hey! Those skills aren't the same thing! You cant just do that.
*Drk: Your a war of course youd say that. Stop pushing down drk

[Chrono_Rising]

Of couese. IR was obviously designed with zerk in mind. But if you apply half of all zerks to the IR window then you need to discount zerk when you later 1v1 zerk vs FoF vs BW. And then do similar weirdness as you go along with each ability keeping track of when its interacting and when its not to get 'fair' values. Do you include the IR when you later compare zerk/FoF/BW and inflate zerk in that comparison as well? Or say 'nah it already got counted for IR'. People wont do that. They will just 1v1 everything picking and choosing the interactions that help their argument. Ammunition for fighting on sand foundations.

Yes, that is exactly how people should be doing it. The potency of inner release is the difference in potency gained during a berserk window as compared to an berserk window without inner release. Or we can do it an any other number of ways, my point it that we can do it but we need to be clear and the comparison's should make sense.

As for the form of the argument its not my place to comment, I believe the point was presented as we are behind and other things being equal or in worse position lets look at our two minute buffs. the two minute buffs have a huge disparity, lets buff that. Based on that I believe their conclusions. I don't think their point was that in a vacuum delirium should be buffed, I believe the point of his argument is that we don't really have much else going for us and delirium is a really good example of something bad.

You presented a factual and logical presentation as to why other things are equal or worse based on stats, and that something needs to be buffed. The conclusion remains the same, one place we could make up that potency is by buffing delirium.

[Kabooa]

Generally I am against nerfing other people’s classes, bring us up to them, not bring them down to us.

Alternatively, you can remove the 20% TP cost on Blood Weapon and apply that part of the ability to something else. Upping Attack Speed to 20%, granting more MP on hit, or giving 10% Crit.

As much as we all enjoy throwing out ideas about how to fix things, you could also just up Darkside to 30% and call it a day.

[Chrono_Rising]

Alternatively, you can remove the 20% TP cost on Blood Weapon and apply that part of the ability to something else. Upping Attack Speed to 20%, granting more MP on hit, or giving 10% Crit.

As much as we all enjoy throwing out ideas about how to fix things, you could also just up Darkside to 30% and call it a day.

I said earlier why I don't like darkside buffs personally, but I'll say it again. People already use darkside against us. They say we have 20% all the time you're perfect, when no we are not perfect. Buff this will just make it worse.