4.1 Dark Knight Feedback and fixes

[Chrono_Rising]

I don't have my notes with me at the moment, but I believe delirium works out to be about 240 potency every 120 seconds when used with blood weapon, thats 2 potency a second. Basically we trade 50 blood for 2400 mana and 8 seconds more of blood weapon. This just doesn’t feel awesome to use being on a 2 minute timer, compare this to something like inner release, or paladin’s two buff rotation and you can see how lacking this ability is.

[SplittingSkies]

I don't have my notes with me at the moment, but I believe delirium works out to be about 240 potency every 120 seconds when used with blood weapon, thats 2 potency a second. Basically we trade 50 blood for 240 mana and 8 seconds more of blood weapon.

So. Lets just get this right.

In other words the skill pales in comparison to WARs Zerk/IR and PLDs FoF/Req; On one hand, WAR gets a 30% AP increase every minute and 50% off sale with their skills that cost BG every two minutes, ignoring zerk, in the beginning they were charged with using IR now its free and yet some are still trying to push their luck where that and Unchained don't share the same CD. And on the other hand, we have PLD with their 25% damage increase and 20% magic damage/healing increase BOTH available every minute. The similarity between all of those four skills is that none of them cost their BG to execute, yet ours does, yet ours is on a 2 minute CD, yet ours just gives us a DA in return and extends BP/BW with no significant difference as we rely upon the damage buffs that everyone else in the party gives, to even make a difference (I realise that I might be repeating what others have been saying but I'm doing this for emphasis)


I still think they could of done a lot more with it and the CD duration isn't properly justified in my opinion for it to EVEN be two minutes. I would take the OP's suggestion of a 10% direct hit buff for yourself and everyone in the party, at least having something like that would justify the two minute CD to a degree. I don't even know what in math is the damage increase with even gaining an extra 8 seconds and to buy an extra DA with 50 blood, but popping a CD of 120 seconds which costs us 50 blood to use should give a lot more than an 8 second extension on BW. We aren't dungeon tanks, we were worth more than that before they decided to take away the skills we had that had some form of synergy to them.

[Chrono_Rising]

So. Lets just get this right.

In other words the skill pales in comparison to WARs Zerk/IR and PLDs FoF/Req; On one hand, WAR gets a 30% AP increase every minute and 50% off sale with their skills that cost BG every two minutes, ignoring zerk, in the beginning they were charged with using IR now its free and yet some are still trying to push their luck where that and Unchained don't share the same CD. And on the other hand, we have PLD with their 25% damage increase and 20% magic damage/healing increase BOTH available every minute. The similarity between all of those four skills is that none of them cost their BG to execute, yet ours does, yet ours is on a 2 minute CD, yet ours just gives us a DA in return and extends BP/BW with no significant difference as we rely upon the damage buffs that everyone else in the party gives, to even make a difference (I realise that I might be repeating what others have been saying but I'm doing this for emphasis)


I still think they could of done a lot more with it and the CD duration isn't properly justified in my opinion for it to EVEN be two minutes. I would take the OP's suggestion of a 10% direct hit buff for yourself and everyone in the party, at least having something like that would justify the two minute CD to a degree. I don't even know what in math is the damage increase with even gaining an extra 8 seconds and to buy an extra DA with 50 blood, but popping a CD of 120 seconds which costs us 50 blood to use should give a lot more than an 8 second extension on BW. We aren't dungeon tanks, we were worth more than that before they decided to take away the skills we had that had some form of synergy to them.

I think you are responding in the wrong thread. The op in this thread is me, and I suggested a double damage buff with double resource generation for the duration of blood weapon or price when we use delirium. The direct hit buff is in the "Fixing Dark Knight, Properly" thread by Crater.

[SplittingSkies]

I think you are responding in the wrong thread. The op in this thread is me, and I suggested a double damage buff with double resource generation for the duration of blood weapon or price when we use delirium. The direct hit buff is in the "Fixing Dark Knight, Properly" thread by Crater.

Apologies, I've been reading and following so many DRK threads that I think my brain has turned to mush. A nap is in order.

[Chrono_Rising]

Apologies, I've reading and following so many DRK threads I think my brain has turned to mush. A nap is in order.

Been there, all good.

[Aana]

So. Lets just get this right.

In other words the skill pales in comparison to WARs Zerk/IR and PLDs FoF/Req; On one hand, WAR gets a 30% AP increase every minute and 50% off sale with their skills that cost BG every two minutes, ignoring zerk, in the beginning they were charged with using IR now its free and yet some are still trying to push their luck where that and Unchained don't share the same CD. And on the other hand, we have PLD with their 25% damage increase and 20% magic damage/healing increase BOTH available every minute. The similarity between all of those four skills is that none of them cost their BG to execute, yet ours does, yet ours is on a 2 minute CD, yet ours just gives us a DA in return and extends BP/BW with no significant difference as we rely upon the damage buffs that everyone else in the party gives, to even make a difference (I realise that I might be repeating what others have been saying but I'm doing this for emphasis)


I still think they could of done a lot more with it and the CD duration isn't properly justified in my opinion for it to EVEN be two minutes. I would take the OP's suggestion of a 10% direct hit buff for yourself and everyone in the party, at least having something like that would justify the two minute CD to a degree. I don't even know what in math is the damage increase with even gaining an extra 8 seconds and to buy an extra DA with 50 blood, but popping a CD of 120 seconds which costs us 50 blood to use should give a lot more than an 8 second extension on BW. We aren't dungeon tanks, we were worth more than that before they decided to take away the skills we had that had some form of synergy to them.

This still pales in comparison to the big damage cooldowns of the other tanks.

This is why we shouldn't just vacuum compare skills. Your Just listing out IR vs Delirium! FoF vs blood weapon! FIGHT! Sure inner release is stronger than delirium. Sure pld has 2 rotating buffs, but pld doesn't have darkside. War doesn't have the avg potency of drk. Handpicking skills to 1v1 each other doesn't show the whole picture. But what matters is the output. Example: Heres numbers from Shin on FFLogs yesterday (picked it cuz its new and shiny):

Rank% War Pld Drk
90% 3139 3056 2917
50% 2605 2473 2321
10% 2032 1914 1877


These are the kinds of numbers you should be 1v1ing to compare. Complete package numbers. Yes drk is at the bottom. But its only ~5% behind the awesome power of pld. ~10% behind lolWar. 5% is not very much ground to make up to get back into the mix. But theres no point in comparing FoF to blood weapon or delirium to IR.

What drk needs is an overall damage buff, not imitate specific job mechanics like "Delirium shouldn't cost gauge because war's IR doesn't cost gauge!" The jobs specific mechanics like gauges perform entirely different functions. Plds dont even use their gauge for damage, Wars damage is centered on FCs through gauge. Drk gauge is neither of those things. IR being 'free' is not a reason to make delirium free. Apples. Oranges.

Drk needs a raw damage buff, not copying the exact job specific mechanics of War or pld.

Buff delirium, or potencies or whatever because the overall damage is low. Don't buff because "IR is stronger than delirium". The latter makes no sense plucking it out of context like that.

[Chrono_Rising]

This is why we shouldn't just vacuum compare skills. Your Just listing out IR vs Delirium! FoF vs blood weapon! FIGHT! Sure inner release is stronger than delirium. Sure pld has 2 rotating buffs, but pld doesn't have darkside. War doesn't have the avg potency of drk. Handpicking skills to 1v1 each other doesn't show the whole picture. But what matters is the output. Example: Heres numbers from Shin on FFLogs yesterday (picked it cuz its new and shiny):

Rank% War Pld Drk
90% 3139 3056 2917
50% 2605 2473 2321
10% 2032 1914 1877


These are the kinds of numbers you should be 1v1ing to compare. Complete package numbers. Yes drk is at the bottom. But its only ~5% behind the awesome power of pld. ~10% behind lolWar. 5% is not very much ground to make up to get back into the mix. But theres no point in comparing FoF to blood weapon or delirium to IR.

What drk needs is an overall damage buff, not imitate specific job mechanics like "Delirium shouldn't cost gauge because war's IR doesn't cost gauge!" The jobs specific mechanics like gauges perform entirely different functions. Plds dont even use their gauge for damage, Wars damage is centered on FCs through gauge. Drk gauge is neither of those things. IR being 'free' is not a reason to make delirium free. Apples. Oranges.

Drk needs a raw damage buff, not copying the exact job specific mechanics of drk or pld.

Thanks for the numbers Aana. This is why I suggested a double damage buff in delirium, for those 8 seconds we would buff our overall damage by about 6.67% which would smack us in the middle of pld and warrior, going to the full duration of 23 seconds might be a bit much, but I can dream. Doubling the resource generation for those should put us more at warrior levels, but given our lack of party wide mitigation I feel justified in wanting to at least deal damage.

[SplittingSkies]

...

While I agree with what you posted, just to point out I made a fatal mistake mixing up one thread with another.

However, if my post seemed to be pointing in the direction of "If warrior can get this for free, we should be able to get this for free too." Then let me take a step back and start again with where I was getting at, again I don't understand the math as much as everyone else here so any assistance on that would be welcomed and appreciated. Number crunching isn't really my strong suit. I was more treading along the lines of: "Delirium should do more than just give us a DA and extend either BW/BP for a two minute cooldown." personally for me using this ability feels... lacking... I understand that yes, now that you have mentioned it, we aren't far behind but I was merely engaging in a discussion about what in DRKs kit needs the most help. And for the length of this CD I feel this needs help as well, of course I'm welcome to be stood corrected.

[Aana]

I don't have my notes with me at the moment, but I believe delirium works out to be about 240 potency every 120 seconds when used with blood weapon, thats 2 potency a second. Basically we trade 50 blood for 2400 mana and 8 seconds more of blood weapon. This just doesn’t feel awesome to use being on a 2 minute timer, compare this to something like inner release, or paladin’s two buff rotation and you can see how lacking this ability is.

To be fair, the 240 just accounts for the blood/MP. You also get the 10% direct potency boost to your AAs/GCDs from the raw speed. I forget the exact number but it was an additional 140ish or so iirc. But that might be wrong/out of date with the potency changes. somewhere between 350-400 potency. Better than 240 but still pretty low for a 2min CD.

[Chrono_Rising]

To be fair, the 240 just accounts for the blood/MP. You also get the 10% direct potency boost to your AAs/GCDs from the raw speed. I forget the exact number but it was an additional 140ish or so iirc. But that might be wrong/out of date with the potency changes. somewhere between 350-400 potency. Better than 240 but still pretty low for a 2min CD.

We only get 1 extra auto attack every other delirium. In general skill speed math is difficult and really fight dependent. Sometimes it is there, sometimes it isn't.