4.1 Dark Knight Feedback and fixes

[TouchandFeel]

Balance is only, can only, be based in the now.

That's not really true. I know from personal experience that when trying to design or balance things in a game you definitely try to think ahead, plan for "ifs" and potential contingencies. While chances are you will not think of or catch everything, if you don't even try you are setting yourself up for things to inevitably go wrong. Looking at only the "now" for things like balance just leaves you with your pants down, tripping over yourself as you try to scramble to fix a problem that could have been avoided if some foresight had been applied. It is true that trying to prepare and adjust for every potential is a practice in futility and a huge waste of time, but being able to judge and filter the likeliness and severity of potential problems is a big part of the job. If a noticeable number of the player-base felt something was a potential problem and gave reasons why, I as a developer would at least give what they were saying a good look.

Essentially when judging something like balance, or any problem solving really, you look at the present and pull observable data from it. You then compare that current data to data observed in the past. You look at what worked then and what didn't, what is working now and what isn't, how things have changed and what those changes correlate to. You then use those comparisons of data to provide a guide for how to approach the future, trying to predict potential problems and figure out ways to safeguard against them. While the "now" is the only place that people will directly feel the results of things, the future quickly becomes the present and focusing solely or too much on the "now" just leaves you unprepared and vulnerable to the dangers that were ignored.

In the end it is not the "then", the "now" or the potential "will be"s. It is looking at all of them and how they interconnect, what level of causation there is or may be, etc. and gaining a greater overall view of the situation from which you can map a path to where you want to get to.

A little credence that I like to live by that I feel is appropriately fitting to this back and forth.
"The best way to fix a problem is to avoid having one in the first place."

But most fourms are just filled with baseless complaints about misunderstood ideas or feelings instead of facts. I just want people to drill down to the root and be able to articulate, rationally, what their issue is instead of just parroting what some reddit post said or demanding things because 'feelings' that don't actually make sense or worse, flatly untrue.

I wholeheartedly agree. I just feel that it is best to try to avoid to fall into the trap of regarding all people's voiced opinions in the same light just because so many people tend towards parroting hyperbole.

While I may not always agree with Syzzle on things and I know that at times they can be a bit brusque, I also understand where they are coming from. Syzzle, myself and a number of other posters here in the DRK threads have in the past taken the stance of presenting things clearly, trying to present thoughtful dissections of abilities and how they affect balance and all those things that you say people should be doing, only to be met with being ignored or "shouted down" by others (often players who mained other tank jobs) who weaponized hyperbole to drown out the "opposition". Some of us have gotten sick of it, especially when we see others using this same hyperbolic approach to get heard by the devs, and have decided to "crank up the volume" so to speak.

Believe me, most of us would much prefer to have nuanced and thoughtful discussions on these topics, we have just found them to be ineffective to get any traction.

[Aana]

I wholeheartedly agree. I just feel that it is best to try to avoid to fall into the trap of regarding all people's voiced opinions in the same light just because so many people tend towards parroting hyperbole.

While I may not always agree with Syzzle on things and I know that at times they can be a bit brusque, I also understand where they are coming from. Syzzle, myself and a number of other posters here in the DRK threads have in the past taken the stance of presenting things clearly, trying to present thoughtful dissections of abilities and how they affect balance and all those things that you say people should be doing, only to be met with being ignored or "shouted down" by others (often players who mained other tank jobs) who weaponized hyperbole to drown out the "opposition". Some of us have gotten sick of it, especially when we see others using this same hyperbolic approach to get heard by the devs, and have decided to "crank up the volume" so to speak.

Believe me, most of us would much prefer to have nuanced and thoughtful discussions on these topics, we have just found them to be ineffective to get any traction.

Of course. I'm accustomed to being annoyed by the hyperbole parrots in forums asking for a pony (the wars did it too recently) and come out strong assuming that people are more likely to be that than reasonable. Just as many come prepared to fend of the 'other' tanks trying to shout you down. Then we end up yelling at each other when with clearer eyes we'd be fwends!

I like the discussion though. I think I have been underestimating fluff AA damage a bit. I play war in raids since 2.0, and Drk on the side, but I don't generally raid with it. From a tank buster/big damage perspective I have thought drk was relatively fine overall (only minor discrepancy, especially when out of tank stance), but probably overlooked the fluff as its always just dismissed as just that. Fluff. And while I know Drks mechanics, math etc and know the raids via war, I have probably been overlooking the fluff aspects. But thanks to the handful of reasonable people I have been reconsidering that position.

[TouchandFeel]

snip

For sure, I get where you are coming from as well, especially in regards to being a tad fed up with the level of hyperbole on these, and really any forum.

I agree with your assessment that Dark Mind is great and quite powerful for busters, especially if you pair it with TBN, so no problems there. But as you also alluded to, it is terrible for fluff damage since it probably just won't work on it. While busters are going to be the more impactful attacks that a tank will have to deal with since it is a much more black and white situation of you survive or you die, the fluff shouldn't necessarily be discounted. While not a hard skill check, it is still a steady resource drain (tank hp and healer mp) that needs to be managed, not to mention the less fluff that the healer has to compensate for frees them up for assisting more with dps.

So a big part of the issue with DM being magic only is the fact that it strips it of the flexibility to be used for busters or for fluff, which is a constraint that really none of the other job specific defensive abilities have asides from Raw Intuition, to which I feel parry should just be made to mitigate magic damage too. This is just compounded by DRK feeling like it is just missing a level of low end more consistent damage mitigation compared to the other tanks. So in a ways a bit of a double whammy in this one place that often gets overlooked since it is deemed "not important" by many, especially those that don't have to deal with the issue and therefore don't really see it.

As for me, I just really want defensive abilities to not be tied to magic or physical damage only. I want this because I feel it would free up the content team from these self-inflicted constraints of having to have busters and raid-wides be magic damage, and then in turn that would allow them to start to push away from the formulaic implementation that we have as to what a buster is and how to implement defense and heal checks. For example why does a buster have to be this big telegraphed single attack? Why can't you create a similar situation by having the boss summon a bunch of small adds whose "fluff damage" would add up to a lot of damage? Heck, make it even more interesting where different players get a target marker on them and then different groups of these adds go after them. Do you have the mt and ot split the adds to split the damage, making it easier to potentially heal through but then splitting dps between the two groups? Do you try to stack all adds on one tank and hope you can heal through? Do you pop an invulnerability cd to solo tank them? What if the adds gained a stacking buff based on how many other adds where close to them? Etc.
I just feel that removing things that reinforce artificial constraints on what things "have to be" in boss and raid encounters will allow designers to be a bit more crazy and creative when coming up with content.

Honestly, I kind of feel that DM was originally intended to be the DRk answer to having a designated buster-focused defensive ability akin to IB or Shelltron. However with TBN being added and usurping that spot, it then begs the question "well, what is DM there for now?".

[Aana]

Snip

Lol woah there nelly! Entire tank/boss redesign! While I cant say I agree with the overall homogenization of damage, its interesting. Theres an odd line between removing the illusion of choice/bloat/needlessly complex mechanics and homogenization. Did Drk really 'need' a 3rd combo? Or scourge? Nah. But now that the 'bloat' is gone, a lot of people seem to want it back. Same with any number of streamlining based changes. Homogenizing damage would be easier to balance for obvious reasons. But is that artificial constraint a + or negative to the game? If every ability is just "I take less damage" it takes out some of the nuance in tanking. Whats the difference between rampart and raw intuition at that point? Theres no longer a choice in what to use, even if it that choice is currently artificially created. At a certain level, that creates engaging gameplay. To much and its clunky. To little and its to simple/dumbed down. (EG: No more sub stats. Everyone has 'ilvl' stat. etc).

TLDR: at a certain point 'streamlining' becomes boring. Maybe im just not creative enough, but I cant see a lot of mechanic things that become available just because CDs become more straightforward/similar. Any of the examples you used could be done with the current system as far as I can tell.