[POLL] Do you think SE should remove the Aetherflow/Aethertrail Lockouts on Summoner?

[Karshan]

That's exactly what we mean by lock outs. I repost here the inconvenience I identified a few posts earlier :

While I agree that it forces a structure to learn how things work, when you DO know it works and what the structure is since ARR/HS, it becomes a burden instead.

Picture 1 : Aetherflow is about 20sec before being available again. You’re about to hit transe, but boss jumps for 15s (example : gravity on O2S).
When you’re back at it, Aetherflow AND your trance are available : so you either ditch the second (trance > DF > AF), or wait a whole 16 seconds before using AF. It was not the case in HS, you could AF just anytime available and not lose precious seconds of it being available.

Picture 2 : To maximize Bahamut, you need aetherflow. When Bahamut is available, aetherflow is about 30 to 40 seconds on CD… so you wait and it just doesn’t feel flowish

Picture 3 : you forgot Stimulation for 15 seconds. When you see it, it’s time for Bahamut. So you wait after Bahamut and lost 20 seconds.

TL;DR : The lock outs are fine on a dummy, they’re a real pain in actual fights with mechanics, boss jumps and tweaks needed in the rotation. To play well you have to know EVERY fight. You can’t just go blind and do well because of the tweaks you need : the lockouts make you very vulnerable to them

[Ceallach]

I'd want to keep the Dreadwyrm Aether stacks at least, but I think that would be good enough.

Even so, the changes they did do in the past few days helped a great deal, I think.

[Neophyte]

They should leave it as it is.

You're literally asking for a buff, similar to BLM enabled to hold 2 'stacks' of foul or a RDM being able to use Manafication within their melee combo.

Sooo, since SMN is pretty well doing, this would mean either a) a nerf, like 175 pf, 250 fester or somethibg like that or b) back to a 30s timer on DWT stacks.

No, thanks.

[Neophyte]

SMN, even if you have to insta Deathflare a DWT now and then is the job profiting the most from downtimes, because AF is simply the strongest CD in the game.

Being able to have DWT + 3 stacks + AF from CD so you can go
DWT(incl. 3 Fester), followed by DWT(+AF), followed by Bahamut with 3 Fester
whenever boss is nice with downtimes

IS.. JUST... OP

[Grimoire-M]

Snip.

I'm specifically referring to the inability for Aetherflow, DWT, and Aethertrail to exist independently of one another, with the ability to stack them at the same time if you choose to, exactly like they worked in HW, aside from the timer on Aethertrail back then.

Snip.

Yes, and I'm not saying there shouldn't be a nerf to compensate. I'd rather the flow be restored to what it was and our potency brought down again than the current system, regardless of the improvements made to their flow in this patch. It's pretty easy to do too. Painflare and Fester both get 50 potency nerfs, the former directly, the latter with an adjustment to 50 base + 100 per DoT on the target, and Rouse is removed. Done.

[Teraluna]

Hi, since the poll is both before and after the 4.1 adjustments, the earlier votes are based on the previous revision of the class.

It may be better to either re-start a vote, or my preference - let the latest changes run for a while and see how it goes.
Any suggestion then are based on longer playing time across different content/group/raid combinations.

[giantslayer]

No, I don't think they should remove the lockout. I've played SMN since 2.x and there are good reasons why they made that change. (For the record, 3.x was my favorite but I haven't tried out 4.1 yet.)

Previously, the decision of spending your Aetherflow in DWT was a calculated risk. Spending one gets your 30s timer rolling. Spending a second left you with a very narrow margin of error for refreshing with your last Aetherflow. For most players, this was actually a losing game. Don't believe me? Let's look at some numbers:

Using Fester in DWT was a potency gain of 20 (200 * .10).
Losing Deathflare was a loss of 440.
Losing 5 Ruin III upgrades was a loss of 660 ([200-80]*5*1.10).
It would take 55 ([440+660]/20) successful uses of Fester in DTW without dropping Aethertrail stacks later on to break even with dropping stacks just once. The number goes up if you add in Tri-Disaster/Contagion.

Even for reasonably good players, it was actually hard to come out ahead by cramming Festers into DWT in 3.x.

In 4.x, the Dev Team's stated goal was to lower the skill ceiling and raise the skill floor. Concurrent with the lockout, they also removed the 30s expiration of Aethertrail, which dramatically raised the floor. People seem to have forgotten how big of an issue dropped stacks were in 3.x.


The main issue with removing the lockout is how it would change the flow/rotation. Let us stop and think how the rotation would change: Spending Aetherflow on Fester in DWT would become the correct way to play SMN. Now that Ruin III is instant cast in DWT, Fester has a 5s cool down, and Aethertrail doesn't drop, it would be very easy to fit in all three Festers into DWT. There would be no tradeoffs or risks involved like there were in 3.x.

You might think that sounds great and are wondering why I am against it. Here's why: Aetherflow stacks give the SMN flexibility with burst DPS. Pigeon-holing SMNs into spending Aetherflow during DWT takes away that flexibility. Now that we can't burn extra mana to crank up the DPS with Ruin III, we don't really have anything else that affords us flexibility like that.

You might say, "if a phase is coming up where you need to burst, then you can just save your stacks." Now we are talking about raising the skill ceiling to where a SMN has to know what will happen in the next 60 seconds of a fight to plan their Aetherflow usage correctly.

"I just want the flexibility to refresh my Aetherflow if I'm late starting DWT." Taking into account the new meta of spending Aetherflow in DWT that would be created by removing the lockout, you would actually have the exact same amount of leeway in the rotation that we have currently.

Current: Refresh Aetherflow. 45s to spend and start DWT.
Proposed: Save DWT. Refresh Aetherflow. 45s to start DWT and spend Aetherflow in DWT.

Basically what this would do is change the rotation from "Spend Aetherflow > use DWT" to "Spend Aetherflow > save DWT until next Aetherflow is available." The current flow is what the Devs intended and I think it is better than what it would become if they removed the lockout.


For those situations where you are late in getting your DWT in, the opportunity cost of ending your DWT early with Deathflare has decreased dramatically in 4.1. You are no longer losing 5 Ruin III upgrades. You are only losing the 10% buff on 5 filler GCDs. Mathematically, it is now MUCH better to hit Deathflare early than to delay your Aetherflow and it's not that big of a DPS loss.

I try to base my opinions on real numbers whenever possible, so here's the math:
Tied to your Aetherflow are: 3 Festers, 1 Deathflare, and 1/2 Bahamut. Let's assume 11 Wyrm Waves with Bahamut. Keep in mind Bahamut's true potency is lower than advertised, which I will account for.

3 Festers: 600 = (3 x 200)
1 Deathflare: 440 = (400 *1.1 DWT bonus)
2 Akh Morns: 1046 = [(680 * 2)/1.3]
11 Wyrm Waves: 1354 = [(160 * 11)/1.3]
- Opportunity cost of 5 Garuda auto-attacks: 592 = [(110 * 7)/1.3]
Aetherflow Potency per second: 32.4/s = [(600+440)/60s + (1046+1354-592)/120s].

Ruin III potency gained in DWT: 13 = (130 * .10)
Ruin III in DWT potency gained per second: 5.2/s = (13 / 2.5s)

So if you delay Aetherflow to cast more Ruin IIIs in DWT, you are sacrificing 32.4/s to gain 5.2/s. In 4.0, the opportunity cost of losing Ruin III was much higher, at 26/s. [(150 * 1.1) - 100 = 65; (65/2.5s) = 26/s]. Ending DWT early for the sake of Aetherflow should not be the difficult decision it was in 4.0 because the DPS loss is now negligible.


TLDR: Lockout should not be removed. Removal would change SMN Rotation to save DWT until next Aetherflow is available. SMN would lose burst DPS flexibility because using Aetherflow outside DWT would be a DPS loss.
If Aetherflow cooldown is ready before DWT is finished, it is now better to use Deathflare quickly and refresh Aetherflow because of the Ruin/Ruin III changes in 4.1.

[Grimoire-M]

Snip.

The votes were around 100 or so when the preliminary patch notes were revealed and have maintained roughly the same ratio before and after the patch. Not removing the poll when opinions haven't swayed it yet.

Snip.

1) I haven't forgotten how artificially hard it was to fit everything in DWT, or how you had to micromanage the Aethertrail timer (also not hard). That was because Ruin III still had a full cast time, and people accepted the forced GCD clipping cause the reward was improving your burst window with TA and other raid buffs. Swiftcast alleviated some of that burden by letting you fit in your last Fester, Ruin III, and Deathflare within that one window. Depending on spell speed it was worth it since it took out a clip you otherwise would have in there that subsequently let you fit in Deathflare. The extra 1s of DWT in 4.0 would make that 2 fester clipping easier, but at the cost of even harder 3 Fester clipping, which I don't think would have been feasible without a Fester CD buff or an increase in DWT's length if 4.1 hadn't given us instant-cast Ruin III.

2) I am not a fan of these Ruin III changes either. I would prefer it if SE gave us something to think about outside DWT, but with Lucid Dreaming we simply can't have mana as our tension for that. It doesn't solve the issue of Ruin III being the only button we press most of the time. Something like RuinI/II/III/IV combos would have to be the equivalent.


3) The fact that it's worth it to drop DWT at all is a problem imo. It was the core ability of SMN in HW and Bahamut could have been integrated into that easily. DWT without the lockouts is also a better flow for the class because it sets the universal precedent that you're waiting on lining up Aetherflow with your CDs to optimize your damage. Bahamut already requires you to pigeon hole it by delaying it for your next aetherflow. Even with the lockouts removed, that still holds true. Having to delay DWT to do the same when Bahamut isn't available is the exact same thing, only without the lockouts it fits better with the opener by a long shot, cause you don't have to drop DWT anymore, you'll still be ready for Bahamut in time cause you got to press Aetherflow ahead of it.

4) The main issue with the lockout removal is Devotion and our pet buff have essentially replaced Spur/Raging Strikes as must press buttons during the pre-DWT period, and they will be further delayed by server issues. This is part of why the old Contagion worked better, but that caused more balance problems than it solved. The other thing is by restoring this inherent flexibility, you are now forced to line up Devotion with your cooldowns. It is 90s, and it is feasible to have it line up with an Aetherflow DWT or Bahamut window. Another reason to nerf it's CD I suppose, something that should happen anyways given the frankly legitimate complaints from other DPS classes about it.

5) A really important factor in all of this is AoE. That would get restored with these 4.1 changes, and that does bother me in some ways and not in others. For one, Tri-Bind would be over-buffed with these changes on top of it, because DWT Triple Painflare + Tri-bind is just worth more than Bane by a long shot, which still feels wrong to me. Bane should be the focus of our AoE, not Tri-Bind, and if these changes were made, it would leave me hopeful that SMN would steer back in that direction to equalize their burst/sustained AoE.

[Llugen]

I didn't read the rest of the thread, but if I was tasked with adjusting Summoner as it stands now (in other words, not completely overhauling the job from the ground up which is absolutely what I would do if I had a magic wand), I would have made it so being within DWT gave you "infinite" Aetherflow and you could just fester three times and Painflare/Energy Drain as appropriate, and so that when Demi-Bahamut is summoned, it is treated like a DWT as well, so you can still get the instant cast Ruin III and Fester/Painflare "constantly" there too.

This, of course, would need proper balancing with the way the rest of the job works, needless to say.

[giantslayer]

My biggest issue in 4.0 was the lack of things to do in between DWT. We went from 4 DoT timers to manage down to 1. You have 30-45 seconds in the rotation where you're basically just spamming Ruin mindlessly while waiting for your next thing. To me, any change that makes that timeframe more boring (such as having to save your Aetherflow for DWT) is a step in the wrong direction.

The Ruin IV change is a good one. My complaint with 4.0 Ruin IV was that it required zero thought or action from the player. I would just be mindlessly spamming Ruin I/III and then a Ruin IV pops out every once in a while. Making it a proc on Ruin II instead means that it gives me something new to pay attention to (which we were sorely lacking with our DoT management cut down so far) and requires me to do something deliberately to activate.

Looking at the bigger picture, the Ruin I/III change was probably more intended to lighten the death penalty on SMN. This took the Ruin III potency out of DWT and spread it out over the entire rotation. It also removed the DPS penalty associated with losing all your MP and not being able to use Ruin III. If you look at the numbers I put up earlier, Bahamut adds about 1900 real potency worth of stuff, so the death penalty had increased rather dramatically in 4.0.

Of course, this change also reduced the non-Deathflare DPS of DWT enough to make it an easy decision to end DWT early to refresh Aetherflow. It doesn't feel like a perfect solution to the clunkiness of the opener, but it is a viable solution nonetheless. I totally understand how you feel your ideas would have been better, but if their solution is working reasonably well, the Devs are not going to backtrack on it to go a different direction. I think it is most productive to focus on what can be done going forward in light of the changes they've already implemented.


For the next round of SMN changes, I propose the following:

1. Make Wyrm Wave an auto attack.
This will fix the "why are we using Addle for DPS" issue and free up half of our Aetherflow from being pigeon-holed into Bahamut (which you correctly pointed out).

2. Make Bahamut take only one Bahamut Aether to summon and only able to do one Akh Morn per summoning.
The point of this is to lighten the death penalty and to reduce the amount of boring Ruin spam downtime.
This is how it works currently in PvP, and it's gotten rave reviews over there (I don't do PvP myself).

In terms of damage, combined with changing Wyrm Wave to a normal auto attack, this would be 7 Wyrm Waves and 1 Akh Morn per minute, but the opportunity cost of losing your normal pet's attacks doubles, so it would actually be a DPS loss of 223 potency over 2 minutes compared to 11 Wyrm Waves under current system. That would put the DPS output closer to what someone could currently do with 9 Wyrm Waves. They could adjust the numbers if that's too much of a DPS loss.
{[(11*160) - (7*110)] - 2[(7*160) - (7*110)]}/1.3 = 223