[POLL] Do you think SE should remove the Aetherflow/Aethertrail Lockouts on Summoner?

[Iromi]

Yes, I want it back how it was in HW. This job feels so clunky to play..between the skills not going off despite me hitting them 10 times, "rewinding" after I hit them, and these lockouts..this class is very frustrating to play...

[ObsidianFire]

From the other perspective...

Back in HW when I hit Lvl. 60 SMN, I took one look at the rotation that had Aetherflow used in DWT and promptly threw it in the trash and never looked at it again. SMN was hard enough already and using Aetherflow in DWT made it even more complicated. Like, it had a 60 sec rotation that was mechanically the same every time (except for what buffs were available) and why was I trying to make the rotations "lopsided" by trying to cram in Aetherflow abilities into DWT every few rounds?

So I pretty much used Aetherflow outside of DWT almost exactly like we're doing right now. It meant that I could stretch the Atunment stacks out to 90 sec if I had to, which was better then risking loosing them (I thought).

Now granted, that was back when Aetherflow abilities had 10 sec CD time and Atunement stacks only lasted 30 sec. It might be different now. However, the only thing I've had to re-learn is using Aetherflow after DWT instead of before, and pretty much every class has some ability to relearn. So that's no biggie.

The best thing about the aetherflow lockout is that it gives *new* SMNs an idea of when to use their aetherflow correctly and gives the job a more obvious structure (and it's one of the worst jobs when it comes to structure). It also means that there's not some hidden rotation out there for people to go looking for so they can get really good at the job. Instead, everyone needs to practice the same thing.

From a job flavor standpoint, I like that the lockout is there. Using aetherflow stacks in DWT reminds me a lot of Machinest and how they dump all their oGCDs into Wildfire. We don't need two classes (both with pets!) to have that type of gameplay. So now we have one class that dumps all their oGCDs into a tiny window and one that cycles through three different "modes".

All I can say is that if we do get Aetherflow stacks in DWT back, I'm not going to be using them then. If I wanted to play a class that had a bunch of oGCDs crammed into a short period of time, I'd be playing Machinest instead.

[Grimoire-M]

From the other perspective...

Back in HW when I hit Lvl. 60 SMN, I took one look at the rotation that had Aetherflow used in DWT and promptly threw it in the trash and never looked at it again. SMN was hard enough already and using Aetherflow in DWT made it even more complicated. Like, it had a 60 sec rotation that was mechanically the same every time (except for what buffs were available) and why was I trying to make the rotations "lopsided" by trying to cram in Aetherflow abilities into DWT every few rounds?

I'm curious what was hard about SMN originally? If you mean DoT management, then yeah, it was hard in ARR due to Bane being so limiting on AoE (4 target cap why) and the way DoTs lined up felt odd on 2-3 targets at times. Raging Strikes/Contagion demanded some frankly awkward optimization too (pop Bio first, Bio II, Miasma, near end apply Miasma II and reapply Bio, use Contagion to extend them all) that I never liked. Aetherflow felt strangely lacking (DoT refreshes to avoid dropping anything was a pain, and while using Fester during RS was great, it felt strange that there wasn't anything else to spend it on AoE wise). The class as a whole felt incomplete then. And SE fixed a lot of those issues come HW. And the rest? Not a fault of DWT. It was Contagion in particular that made things a mess.

So I pretty much used Aetherflow outside of DWT almost exactly like we're doing right now. It meant that I could stretch the Attunment stacks out to 90 sec if I had to, which was better then risking loosing them (I thought).

Now granted, that was back when Aetherflow abilities had 10 sec CD time and Atunement stacks only lasted 30 sec. It might be different now. However, the only thing I've had to re-learn is using Aetherflow after DWT instead of before, and pretty much every class has some ability to relearn. So that's no biggie.

The best thing about the aetherflow lockout is that it gives *new* SMNs an idea of when to use their aetherflow correctly and gives the job a more obvious structure (and it's one of the worst jobs when it comes to structure). It also means that there's not some hidden rotation out there for people to go looking for so they can get really good at the job. Instead, everyone needs to practice the same thing.

The thing is, old DWT did that too. Pretty obviously too. While levelling in HW the minute I got DWT I read the tooltip and thought "Hey, I can use Tri-Disaster during this!" Then I looked at all of my other cooldowns and thought "Oh. My. God. This is gonna be ridiculous." Then I started trying it, and I loved it, cause it simply came together so well. The only unintuitive thing about old DWT was Aethertrail, but I felt the timer was the issue with that, not the rest of the class.

Also, Aethertrail Attunement still had some had flexibility in when you could use it too. Not as much as you had, but there were times when I popped two DWTs nearly back to back simply because I wouldn't get any value out of them otherwise (A1S comes to mind with its jumps, and essentially making you repeat your opener every time), and there were times when I tried to extend the buff longer so I could delay DWT to fit a burst window better. It was annoying, but necessary at the time. I'd rather not have the timer on Aethertrail at all either, so I can simply pick when to go off.

From a job flavor standpoint, I like that the lockout is there. Using aetherflow stacks in DWT reminds me a lot of Machinest and how they dump all their oGCDs into Wildfire. We don't need two classes (both with pets!) to have that type of gameplay. So now we have one class that dumps all their oGCDs into a tiny window and one that cycles through three different "modes".

All I can say is that if we do get Aetherflow stacks in DWT back, I'm not going to be using them then. If I wanted to play a class that had a bunch of oGCDs crammed into a short period of time, I'd be playing Machinest instead.

I'm of the opinion that Machinist and Summoner are sufficiently different already. SMN is a DoT focused class after all, while Machinist isn't. And its pets do more than autoattack with little/no thought (something I'd like more about SMN if the engine weren't so flawed thanks to its animation lock and server delay). The problems with Machinist at the moment are mostly in how its heat generation actually does nothing (It lines up too well. There's no reason to reduce your heat in any manner unless you stack too much skill speed, but DET/DHIT are way better for you atm) which inhibits its identity. The focus on Wildfire and bursting in that window is similar to SMN's DWT, but it loads the damage you deal during its duration into a single burst ability, rather than being a static boost that affects all of your damage applied during its window. To see how that matters, you need to know how Snapshotting works.

Snapshotting is basically a consequence of the engine. Every ability you use takes every applicable buff into account when you use it, even if that buff falls off later. It creates some nuances that differentiate DWT and Wildfire. Namely, with Wildfire you'd want to pre-dot the target with Lead Shot (back when MCH had it) before touching it, since it took the Lead Shot ticks that happened during its duration into account. Meanwhile DWT and Tri-Disaster works the opposite way, carrying DWT's boost to your DoT potency past its duration (Leadshot did this too with Raging Strikes/Hot Shot, which created some extra tension when setting up your RS/Wildfire window, which is probably the reason Lead Shot was removed). Contagion also took advantage of your snapshotted DoTs by extending them, but I'd rather have this version of it where it boosts your damage output than the extend, truth be told, even if the lockouts were removed. The reset fulfills the same purpose as contagion better, without treading into that awkward territory of "Extending this makes it better than Ruin so press it!!!" if we got another weak DoT like (old) Miasma II again.

[Karshan]

snip

While I agree that it forces a structure to learn how things work, when you DO know it works and what the structure is since ARR/HS, it becomes a burden instead.

Picture 1 : Aetherflow is about 20sec before being available again. You’re about to hit transe, but boss jumps for 15s (example : gravity on O2S).
When you’re back at it, Aetherflow AND your trance are available : so you either ditch the second (trance > DF > AF), or wait a whole 16 seconds before using AF. It was not the case in HS, you could AF just anytime available and not lose precious seconds of it being available.

Picture 2 : To maximize Bahamut, you need aetherflow. When Bahamut is available, aetherflow is about 30 to 40 seconds on CD… so you wait and it just doesn’t feel flowish

Picture 3 : you forgot Stimulation for 15 seconds. When you see it, it’s time for Bahamut. So you wait after Bahamut and lost 20 seconds.

TL;DR : The lock outs are fine on a dummy, they’re a real pain in actual fights with mechanics, boss jumps and tweaks needed in the rotation. To play well you have to know EVERY fight. You can’t just go blind and do well because of the tweaks you need : the lockouts make you very vulnerable to them

[number473]

In Heavensward, I found summoner complicated enough that I didn't even bother to get the basics down. Stormblood summoner is much more approachable to someone new to the class in terms of you have your aetherflow part, then you have your trance phase, and sometimes you have bahamut at the same time as your aetherflow.

I think there are things that don't fit quite right with the class, but I don't think the aetherflow lockout during dreadwyrm trance is what causes it. It is mostly a difference between what you are used to and the way it is now.

[Karshan]

Sure thing. But someone who just follows the general pattern will not do a good job (very far from the top, as compared to another class doing the basics).

SMN right now is a precise timing of all skills, and just following the pattern without paying attention to the very precise moment a skill needs to be used has a huge impact on DPS.

That's what I'm calling out with the locks.

And honestly the basic pattern wasn't hard (and still is not). Prepare trance > enter trance. But maximizing was a lot less difficult in HS than it is now, especially in the heat of a fight.
What I'm calling out is that they wanted to reduce the skill gap and it ended up being the opposite, someone just doing the basics has never been so far from an optimal rotation guy

Let's take exemples of fights with not much adds (or very little DPS gained from it) :
HS A10S : 10% 1800 - 95% 2500 the top was doing 38% better
HS A11S : 10% 1800 - 95% 2500 the top was doing 37% better
Stormblood :
SB O1S : 10% 3300 - 95% 5400 the top is doing 63% better
SB O2S : 10% 3400 - 95% 5300 the top is doing 56% better

The skill gap has increased

[number473]

What I'm calling out is that they wanted to reduce the skill gap and it ended up being the opposite,

I think you could make this argument about many of the dps classes, not just SMN, but I certainly agree with you. My experience as a healer main in HW was that the dps classes were quite complicated to learn. I'm not saying that they were necessarily hard to play once you're used to them, but they are quite complicated, at least when you start out and try to figure how all the bits fit together. Compare that to, say, red mage which is really simple to pick up and play and you'll understand what I mean.

I actually think I understand what you mean better now, though. There is no space in the rotation for overlaps and no slack to make up for delays in any part of it. I still think that there is more causing this problem than just the aetherflow/trance lock out.

[silverlunarfox]

I've played since 2.0 as smn....

I'm honestly fine with it as is. I adapted a good rotation to deal with it with almost perfect timing. Yeah sure i still have accidental button presses but really thats on me.

[Grimoire-M]

Snip

The other issues are in large part exacerbated by DWT/Aethertrail/Aetherflow's lockout. Rouse and Bahamut don't work together, while DWT and Rouse do, except you don't want to press Rouse during DWT, but before it. Contagion/Radiant Shield can be applied wherever you want within reason but are locked behind pet delays, meaning time spent setting them up delays everything else. Bahamut requires you to save Addle and wait for your next Aetherflow atm, but in the next patch you'll be pressing the former on CD after your first Bahamut phase, while waiting for the latter is unavoidable if you want to maximize your job, simply cause Bahamut isn't built into DWT itself.


And yes, HW SMN was complicated and had problems, but most of those were holdovers from ARR, while DWT highlighted them. They had too many major cooldowns to press in a short span. The different DoT durations were put there in ARR to make the rotation more interesting, and Contagion optimization that was also an awkward carryover from ARR. All of those problems were solved in the SB transition by consolidating Rouse/Spur and our DoTs to Bio/Miasma III, changing Contagion from an extend to a magic vul up, and removing Raging Strikes. Triple Fester would be an issue in the current DWT if the lockouts were removed, but honestly I could see increasing its duration to match Bahamut/Rouse to make that easier for people.

[Music4Therapy]

I am against it.

TL;DR background: I started playing FFXIV in the beginning of HW. In all games that I play, I really enjoy classes that progress through different phases or require lining up of CDs to get what I feel to be very satisfying burst phases.

At first, SMN never appealed to me... the class seemed to be focused on damage over time. I started as a DRG, their massive opener and burst potential throughout the fight was amazing. That said, when I got to HW I unlocked the MCH job. Ignoring the naysayers, I played it and loved it. In Stormblood, they derped both those classes... their skillfloors were raised incredibly and I found them to be boring due to their apparent lack of depth. The AoE of MCH no longer felt satisfying, the removal of grenado shot and the ability to multidot made the new MCH feel extremely repetitive and a drag to play in dungeons. Heck, they made MCH even more braindead to play by making it incredibly simple to manage the Heat Gauge due to the fact your barely generate enough heat to overheat in the first place, thus making "managing the heatgauge" so easy a monkey could do it (without using ammo, it takes 10 GCDs to overheat, much longer with)

Stormblood to me feels like 3.X MCH with 2 Wildfire phases. Maybe I enjoy the flow so much because I didn't give old summoner much of a chance, but I love the amount of depth and the immense potential this class has. Like MCH, SMN's damage is also gated behind a 60 sec CD: Aetherflow. They then have 3 phases they transition through in 20 second increments: Rouse, Bahamut, DWT. I love it. Its a class that has quite a bit to learn, but once you realize how it all works together everything just clicks and flows extraordinarily well.

That said, I'm not 100% sure what you mean by Aetherflow Lockout, but i can assume you mean the inability to make use of Aetherflow Stacks while in DWT. Which I am extremely happy about, because if you were able to use Aetherflow Stacks in DWT... you would every single time and not using a stack inside of DWT would be a substantial DPS loss unless you have a Bahamut Phase coming. Preventing the use of stacks while in DWT was a good decision, imo. Allows the class to have more flexibility. If you meant something else by Aetherflow lockout, mb. I'd be in favor of disabling the use of Aetherflow while in DWT that way mistakes don't happen?