[SPOILERS] Heavensward vs Stormblood MSQ Story

[Mysterysword]

Lyse:


"I never asked for this."

Here, a song for her.

[Balipu]

Well, call me cynical but it certainly seems like they're setting her up to be the primary leader of the entirety of Gyr Abania. I will be pleasantly surprised if that isn't the case but so far it seems like it's heading in that direction. She will probably have a few key allies to 'support' her. The sort that will conveniently throw their full support behind her whilst being far more competent to the point where people start questioning as to why they aren't the primary leader figure instead.

Which opens another can of worms as we need someone to represent the Scions' interests in Gridania.

I'm gonna hazard a guess and say that 4.x will bring a large shakeup to the status quo and changes who leads what and belongs to which organization. Mostly because Raubahn and Lyse are on the move.

[Mysterysword]

Not only did they squander the hope of fleshing out Yda as she was to fit the role, but immediately saddled their "new" character (and perhaps her "old" accomplices by extension) with a undesirable trait: The desire to lie and specifically keep you in the dark for years.

This isn't the first time the Scions have betrayed our trust: 3.4 showed Urianger is perfectly willing to throw us into a deathmatch without so much as a warning, because... convenience, I guess. God knows.

And there are some very vocal people insisting that the Scions see the WoL as a true friend and all that jazz, but when they pull stuff like this, I find that hard to believe.

Remember that moment in HW, when the Elezen Dream Team was discussing how to get rid of Ravana? Estinien called Alphinaud out on how casual he was in just throwing us at the problem, and Alphinaud's HW short story, as well as his subsequent characterisation, showed that he took that lesson to heart.

The rest of the Scions have yet to even be called out on this sort of behaviour, let alone try to treat us the way Alphinaud does, and coupled with the way they're handled, Minfilia's big speech about "I hope we will become family" that she spews, all the way back when we first met them all in 2.0, comes off as heavy-handed manipulation.

With all this in mind, it's small wonder that the writers seem to be looking for excuses to write them out of the story at any possible point. I honestly think that the story gets better when the Scions aren't around, though.

[Balipu]

With all this in mind, it's small wonder that the writers seem to be looking for excuses to write them out of the story at any possible point. I honestly think that the story gets better when the Scions aren't around, though.

THIS. All we need are the Leveilleur twins and guest stars that are appropriate for the region like Estinien or Hien. and maybe Tataru. She might be evil but she is good at dealing with non-combat issues.

[Aosha]

and maybe Tataru.

always Tataru

[Theodric]

Which opens another can of worms as we need someone to represent the Scions' interests in Gridania.

I'm gonna hazard a guess and say that 4.x will bring a large shakeup to the status quo and changes who leads what and belongs to which organization. Mostly because Raubahn and Lyse are on the move.

As far as representatives are concerned, they could either introduce a new character entirely or simply promote one of the background Scions into a more prominent position like they did with Arenvald and Riol. It was a pleasant surprise to see the former show up in Gyr Abania and the latter to appear in the RDM quest chain.

As for the status quo, I do hope you have the right of it. Lolorito, Nanamo, Raubahn and Lyse all being involved in the MSQ's for 4.1 certainly leaves a lot of potential.

This isn't the first time the Scions have betrayed our trust: 3.4 showed Urianger is perfectly willing to throw us into a deathmatch without so much as a warning, because... convenience, I guess. God knows.

And there are some very vocal people insisting that the Scions see the WoL as a true friend and all that jazz, but when they pull stuff like this, I find that hard to believe.

Remember that moment in HW, when the Elezen Dream Team was discussing how to get rid of Ravana? Estinien called Alphinaud out on how casual he was in just throwing us at the problem, and Alphinaud's HW short story, as well as his subsequent characterisation, showed that he took that lesson to heart.

The rest of the Scions have yet to even be called out on this sort of behaviour, let alone try to treat us the way Alphinaud does, and coupled with the way they're handled, Minfilia's big speech about "I hope we will become family" that she spews, all the way back when we first met them all in 2.0, comes off as heavy-handed manipulation.

With all this in mind, it's small wonder that the writers seem to be looking for excuses to write them out of the story at any possible point. I honestly think that the story gets better when the Scions aren't around, though.

To be fair, the Warrior of Light willingly throws himself into such situations. Often without an objective view or knowing the fully story. This is the case with both the MSQ's and various side quests. I do agree, though, that there should be more backlash when the Scions screw up or lie to the Warrior of Light. Even if it's done for the 'greater good' it doesn't feel great to have a supposed friend betray one's trust or abuse their kind nature or power. Yuguri screwed up pretty badly by attempting to assassinate Zenos in Yanxia but received very little in the way of backlash. Things did work out pretty well but that rested on Zenos choosing not to just casually slaughter any of those present. He was certainly capable of doing so.

Which, unfortunately, ties into my main criticism of the MSQ's - everything just ends up working out perfectly one way or another for the protagonists in the vast majority of occasions and even if someone screws up there's rarely any real, lasting consequences. We don't even see much in the way of rivalry or distaste between our allies - they agree on pretty much everything. Nero and Cid are a refreshing exception to that. It's possible for characters to work together out of necessity but not actually like each other much - so seeing more of that would help shakes things up a little.

[Omury]

To be fair to the Scions, before we showed up, whenever a primal showed up, people would die because they were tempered. And other members of the Grand Companies fought and killed comrades. Then we come along and, miracle of miracles, we come along and drop primal deaths to almost nothing. Why wouldn't your plan for any primal after Ifrit be anything other than have the Warrior of Light fight it. It keeps the fighting force of the city-states intact, whenever we enter the battle field morale goes up, and normal people don't live in fear of being tempered by the primals. It's a tactical decision that, while stupid with us contending with primals of unknown strength, has merit.

As for the lying part, I'm guessing you're talking about the whole Lyse is Yda thing. Question, what did it change? Lyse wasn't ready to be herself yet. She had to be Yda because she didn't know what she was supposed to do when her sister died and she has, what she believes is, no talent or power that makes her special. She needed to be Yda until she could come to terms with the reality of the situation and finally cast off the mask to be her own person, rather than someone who isn't even able to help the people that her sister knew and maybe even cared about.

And in addition, why are all of you on your high horse, perhaps you have forgotten that time where we DIDN'T HAVE THE BLESSING OF LIGHT and told no one. We were talking and dragging around the father of all dragon-kind and we said NOTHING. In a city-state at war with the most vengeful of the brood. I'm not calling out the Scions for lying or not telling us everything when we kept that a secret from them. Trust is a two-way street.

Everything just ends up working out perfectly one way or another for the protagonists in the vast majority of occasions and even if someone screws up there's rarely any real, lasting consequences.

Perhaps you have forgotten the events of 2.55. We were branded a traitor to Ul'dah and were forced out of the city. The only reason that worked out is because the little shite in charge of the Monetarists was making moves in the background, with his almost comically large amount of coin, deciding that killing not only the flame general, but making his execution a trap to kill the Warrior of Light, more destabilizing to Ul'dah than beneficial, and I just realized that we might owe that shite a favor.

[Zohar_Lahar]

The Lyse thing just seems like a forced way to get us to care about Ala Mhigo, since they had been portrayed as insufferable jerkasses and whiny nationalists.

[Mysterysword]

Why wouldn't your plan for any primal after Ifrit be anything other than have the Warrior of Light fight it.

Because the WoL is one person who will presumably die one day, whether of old age or other causes, and this is a short-term solution to a long-term problem? Also because it shows that an entire organisation dedicated to fighting primals is apparently so incompetent that they can't even do the work of one person.

In-game lore shows that it is possible to fight primals without the Echo and without being tempered; you need to be quick enough to dodge the primal's aether blasts. With this in mind, here's a two-step solution to the primal problem.

1. Lure primal out to a certain spot, preferably with people who will be quick enough to dodge aether blasts.
2. Fire cannonballs at primal until it's dead.

Doesn't require you to have the Echo. Yet they couldn't be bothered to come up with something that simple before we showed up?

As for the lying part, I'm guessing you're talking about the whole Lyse is Yda thing. Question, what did it change? Lyse wasn't ready to be herself yet. She had to be Yda because she didn't know what she was supposed to do when her sister died and she has, what she believes is, no talent or power that makes her special. She needed to be Yda until she could come to terms with the reality of the situation and finally cast off the mask to be her own person, rather than someone who isn't even able to help the people that her sister knew and maybe even cared about.

I'm not sure what change you're talking about here. My objection to this plot point is that 1. It's screwed up to lie to somebody you call a friend, about your identity, and 2. It is especially screwed up to assume a dead person's identity and cover up their death, again, to their friends. And I'm presuming that Yda had other friends beyond the Scions, and those other friends were all lied to for years. Lyse's reasons for doing what she did arguably makes it even more messed up, because there are plenty of people out there who lose beloved family members, who also "don't know who they want to be", but don't decide to masquerade as a dead person for several years.

And in addition, why are all of you on your high horse, perhaps you have forgotten that time where we DIDN'T HAVE THE BLESSING OF LIGHT and told no one. We were talking and dragging around the father of all dragon-kind and we said NOTHING.

1. We told Minfilia about this, in the Scion meeting right after we finish Keeper of the Lake.
2. She told us to keep it quiet.
3. We respected her wishes.

[CaesarCV]

In-game lore shows that it is possible to fight primals without the Echo and without being tempered; you need to be quick enough to dodge the primal's aether blasts. With this in mind, here's a two-step solution to the primal problem.

1. Lure primal out to a certain spot, preferably with people who will be quick enough to dodge aether blasts.
2. Fire cannonballs at primal until it's dead.

Doesn't require you to have the Echo. Yet they couldn't be bothered to come up with something that simple before we showed up?

While I certainly can't disagree with all of your post, I cannot necessarily agree with this part. Namely because several of those tactics have been shown in game, and have rather mixed effectiveness. If it was as simple as using physical force to defeat them, then the Garlean Empire, with their advanced artillery, (presumably) tempering immune warmachina, and incredible amount of forces would not have much trouble against them. But instead, they consider them so terrifying that they are committed to ridiculous lengths (genocide, Ultima Weapon, Resonant etc) to try and stop them. Indeed, they consider Primals and other Eikons to be the one thing standing in the way of their conquest. Similarly, there's an example of that sort of strategy working with the first time the Company of Heroes fought Leviathan, but it was a complete failure the second time around, with the Lominsan fleet being shattered. When primals can cause massive landslides, tidal waves and other horrors, physical force in a traditional sense like that isn't always a valid option. Even a weapon as powerful as an Agrius class battlecruiser or the combined military forces of the Immortal Flames is quite often not enough to deal with a primal. Specialized tactics like the kind the scions use is often more effective.