Many other jobs are getting old skills back...

[Erin_Singh]

We are talking in circles. If pld could use them in HW and can't use them now...then we lost them. What does pld gain from role actions that they didn't have in HW? What does war/drk gain from role actions? You want both. Your not asking for these skills to be put on the role list. You want them straight into the jobs and keep what pld is giving. So your asking to bring back the old class system but this time we should exclude pld because reasons.

Why are you talking of role actions ? Or the old class system ?

In sb, paladin lost Rempart, Convalescence, Provocation, awareness. Lucky you, you got them back.
Plus, you gained 5 SKILLS instead of 4.

War and Drk were already using these, so we had to take them back again, now let's have a look at what drk lost: shadow wall, scourge, low blow, reprisal, Dark dance, Delirium.
Shadow wall was replaced by rempart, okay, why not. Though, it hurts drk visual identity, because animations are not the same.
Scourge was a key skill for drk, gone.
Low blow was a stun that did damage, a worst version is available in role actions.
Reprisal was raid utility and did damage too, you can now find a worst version in role actions.
dark dance was a defensive cd that could be used to proc Reprisal and was great in dungeons. Gone
Delirum was a combo finished and brought raid utility. Gone

See ? One way or another, everything paladin lost, they could have it back, and they got even more than drk.
The only thing drk can have back is reprisal, and it's only a husk of it's former self.
And all the changes hurt in one way or another drk's flow and visual identity

Are we that selfish when we want SOME skills back ? After everything we lost ? We have less damage, less mitigation, than both pld and war and less utility than pld, and you find it fair ?!

(not talking about war because I don't have it 70 and haven't played it in hw)

[MauvaisOeil]

It actually wouldn't be, since the DoT portion is stronger than PLD's average rotational potency by a good margin, and changing it to a single button also wouldn't change PLD's rotation too much.

Fracture was a trash skill because in order for it to be a dps gain, it needed to be active on the boss and get every single tick for that entire 30 seconds. It also delayed stack building and if even one DoT tick got interrupted by the boss going invuln, it was worthless. Even then, with perfect managing of fracture, it was something like 1% or less dps gain over just ignoring it. If it was ever brought back, it'd need to be stapled to Storm's Eye like how Goring blade is currently, or it'd need major potency buffs and/or large beast gauge generation to be worth it.

I do agree that DRK could stand to either get an ability or two it used to have back, or get a new one/modify current ones to help it's current situation, as with current known 4.1 changes, it's about to lose on basically every front to PLD/WAR. Honestly, the only thing WAR could use from it's old set is Bloodbath. Foresight was basically obsoleted with WAR gaining Rampart, Fracture would need to be heavily modified if it were to make a comeback or it'd be an instantly dead skill, and mercy stroke was basically a very limited OGCD.

Hell no, Fracture was usefull, but quite against the whole kit of bulding stacks that HW brought. War's combo have a really low potency, and fracture's 300 potency made it a reliable skill for sustained damage, even with the delay in rage generation it would bring (which wasn't a full stack, but 2/3 of a stack due to rage/abandon being generated only two stacks every three combo moves, thus beeing a potency gain of 300-((median potency of combos)+(2/15 of the potency gain of a fel cleave over a median combo)).

Maths put aside, it was also a great way to fit a last GCD during a berserk window, clipping the 50% Attack bonus for the whole dot, making it worth a whopping 450 potency compared to non berserk skills.

What lacked, was interaction between fracture and the warrior kit, like Rage/abandon gains on ticks, making it worthwhile for applying and long AOE packs on which TP would become restrained, or a potency bonus when used after a 3rd skillchain, making it an occasional every 30s 4th combo chain.

[Gravton]

I'm going to try one more time because I don't know how else to explain it. Let's look at drk vs. pld then. (I'm just going to go through what you listed, without even contesting them.)

Drk lost shadow wall, scourge, low blow, reprisal, dark dance, delirium. You want those 6 abilities back PLUS keeping the 4 abilities from pld and the one additional ability from role actions. 11 abilities.

Pld lost rampart, Convalescence, Provoke, Awareness. Pld gets to re-equip them with one additional. 5 abilities. (We don't get to re-equip what we lost from class...war/drk do.)

Even though all the tanks are comparable in dps. You want to hike up war and drk dps, def, and sustain. Then keep pld exactly the same and don't see that it would burry pld in terms of balance. I've already stated twice now, drk should get one extra def cd.

[Erin_Singh]

I'm going to try one more time because I don't know how else to explain it. Let's look at drk vs. pld then. (I'm just going to go through what you listed, without even contesting them.)

Drk lost shadow wall, scourge, low blow, reprisal, dark dance, delirium. You want those 6 abilities back PLUS keeping the 4 abilities from pld and the one additional ability from role actions. 11 abilities.

Pld lost rampart, Convalescence, Provoke, Awareness. Pld gets to re-equip them with one additional. 5 abilities. (We don't get to re-equip what we lost from class...war/drk do.)


Even though all the tanks are comparable in dps. You want to hike up war and drk dps, def, and sustain. Then keep pld exactly the same and don't see that it would burry pld in terms of balance. I've already stated twice now, drk should get one extra def cd.

There is a 100 dps difference between drk and pld, and 180 between drk and war. Pld, is above drk in mitigation, dps, sustain and raid utility, and now you tell me that hiking up drk would bury pld ? I don't think so.

And we don't ask to have all of our lost skills, just some (in my opinion, a cd, and delirium OR scourge)

To give you some insight, in 3.2, There was 40 dps difference between pld and drk and 170 dps difference between pld and war.

[Gravton]

To give you some insight, in 3.2, There was 40 dps difference between pld and drk and 170 dps difference between pld and war.

That is interesting, only 40 and 170? That's not bad. So tell me, where did pld fit in the meta with only 40 under drk? How much would these abilities increase the dps of drk and war over pld? Because if its 40 or more over pld, we saw how the community treated pld in HW. Plus drk/war were essentially gods in any dungeon run. (If we're not talking about meta)

[Erin_Singh]

Pld was treated poorly because drk had roughly the same utility with more dps

[MauvaisOeil]

Pld was treated poorly because drk had roughly the same utility with more dps

Magical tankburst everywhere with monk in a poor META place aswell. Flat 10% damage down on TB and AOE is quite a mess, but that was a design choice of encounters. A bad one, but still a design choice.

[Aana]

Drk could bring (old) reprisal+int down (mnks not ideal then), war brought (old) path+ slash (nin dps los and no sam).
Drk could had immense mitigation as MT in the Magical buster world of Alex
Drk did immense damage while MT, warrior did cray damage as OT and best raid mitigation.

Pld was behind on damage, behind on mitigation (magic intense fights), behind on raid mitigation (path and delirium+int down stomped halone).

War was a defacto OT as it had better damage and brought path+Slash (before sam and it was DPS loss for nin to use if you even had one) which left MT slot. Drk did more damage, had better mitigation (cuz magic), and had better raid mitigation (old reprisal).

Drk is the current 'weakest' tank. But not nearly to the degree of pld in 3.x. Pld however was desirable in the handful of physical intense fights though. There was just to much disparity between Drk magic and Pld Physical defenses so the fights determined the tank meta far to strongly. They since walked that back and homogenized tanks a bit. Not perfect. But better.

[Gravton]

Now factor in what we have now. Tbn on drk, and the new aoe shield war is getting. If they bump drk dps over pld, war + drk offer the exact same utility as a pld but deal more damage than pld+drk or pld+war. Tbn has a lower cool down than intervention (at the very least the same), and shake it off has a lower cool down than passage and divine. One or the other is NEEDED but with healer shields both aren't. In any comp you get 2 reprisals, and drk still gets magic mitigation from dark dance. Once groups realize this the only reason to bring pally is for dps increase until drk gets that bump in dps.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Another major issue with HW PLD was how poorly it played with DRK. As if the absence of a WAR wasn't bad enough, a PLD OT would actually hinder a DRK MT's performance.