DRK AOE Damage

[Phoenicia]

On big pulls, you are taking 20-30k per auto from all mobs. No matter how tanky you are, you will still need heal. DRK can sustain about 1/2 of that and TBN blocks almost another 1/2.

Okay, maybe I don't know how to do 1+1=2. But how does 11k irreplenishable shield every 15 seconds block half 20-30k PER AUTO (which is every 2~4 seconds)? Stop there, and think carefully before you try and continue this argument.

Another hint: DA costs 25% of your MP bar, AD costs 13% .DAAD is 38%, TBN is also 25%. How is spending 63% (more than half your MP) in 1 GCD and then the remiaining 38% the next GCD "sustainable"?.

Heck, WAR spamming NOTHING but Overpower can last at least 10 GCDs not counting TP regen (which would be 450 over 25 seconds) or Deliverance Equilibrium. DRK runs dry in 2 GCDs if using DAAD and a TBN to "sustain" the damage it takes. And do not even try to convince me that Blood Price is enough. Quietus will be 2 more AoE GCDs counting Quietus itself. And all the healer needs to ruin your day is Swiftcast a Holy.

Speaking of WHM and healer's DPS, the SECOND WHM spams holy, that's 10s of continuous AoE Stun-lock. TBN duration is 5s, 1 mistimed Holy (6s stun) will have dug a hole 25% deep into your MP with no gauge or potency to show for it. That alone shows how "bad" DRK synergizes with WHM.

I will stop here because it seems to me you are either unwilling to admit that DRK isn't "king" of AoE or do not have enough experience on the other two tanks to know enough.

As for proof, I can crop the same section on <insert cerain third party program name here> of any part of a 12 minute run in any dungeon and write next to it a number of total DPS, but what if 80% of that total DPS is the insanely GOD tier BLMs? Your cropped part doesn't even show what class you were, if you were even in there. And to be honest it doesn't matter. Tank+Healer combined DPS will only make the run a few seconds faster/slower.

As I said in my previous post: A tank's only contribution to a speed dungeon clear is How big you Pull without dying and how fast you run between said pulls. The healer's contribution is making sure no wipes in the process. The rest is ALL in your DPS class's hands. And if you think a BLM or SMN can't parse 8k on a pack, you need to run with better casters.

[Sarcatica]

Okay, maybe I don't know how to do 1+1=2. But how does 11k irreplenishable shield every 15 seconds block half 20-30k PER AUTO (which is every 2~4 seconds)? Stop there, and think carefully before you try and continue this argument.

Another hint: DA costs 25% of your MP bar, AD costs 13% .DAAD is 38%, TBN is also 25%. How is spending 63% (more than half your MP) in 1 GCD and then the remiaining 38% the next GCD "sustainable"?.

Heck, WAR spamming NOTHING but Overpower can last at least 10 GCDs not counting TP regen (which would be 450 over 25 seconds) or Deliverance Equilibrium. DRK runs dry in 2 GCDs if using DAAD and a TBN to "sustain" the damage it takes. And do not even try to convince me that Blood Price is enough. Quietus will be 2 more AoE GCDs counting Quietus itself. And all the healer needs to ruin your day is Swiftcast a Holy.

Speaking of WHM and healer's DPS, the SECOND WHM spams holy, that's 10s of continuous AoE Stun-lock. TBN duration is 5s, 1 mistimed Holy (6s stun) will have dug a hole 25% deep into your MP with no gauge or potency to show for it. That alone shows how "bad" DRK synergizes with WHM.

I will stop here because it seems to me you are either unwilling to admit that DRK isn't "king" of AoE or do not have enough experience on the other two tanks to know enough.

As for proof, I can crop the same section on <insert cerain third party program name here> of any part of a 12 minute run in any dungeon and write next to it a number of total DPS, but what if 80% of that total DPS is the insanely GOD tier BLMs? Your cropped part doesn't even show what class you were, if you were even in there. And to be honest it doesn't matter. Tank+Healer combined DPS will only make the run a few seconds faster/slower.

As I said in my previous post: A tank's only contribution to a speed dungeon clear is How big you Pull without dying and how fast you run between said pulls. The healer's contribution is making sure no wipes in the process. The rest is ALL in your DPS class's hands. And if you think a BLM or SMN can't parse 8k on a pack, you need to run with better casters.

20k-30k is figuratively speaking. TBN works to also give mana via Quietus which enables healing. Like mentioned, it's about half-half mitigation so healer needs to still heal a bit but not as much as if your WAR go all ham for that 6x Decimate. You never go dry in big pulls, BP gives 1 gauge for every hit, TBN gives 50 gauge, if any, you are sure to cap your mana on big pulls due to how many mobs are hitting you. Hence you can back to back DAAD into Quietus into TBN Quietus DAAD DAAD Quietus etc. Only once your mobs count start going down that your mana take a hit and you need to sustain via Syphon and BP is normally up for start of each pull.

You forget to account that healer can be AST or SCH, not just WHM. And as mentioned again, you play around WHM because of that multiple stuns to maximize your TBN value and mana value. Which idiot uses TBN when mobs are stunned, you also fail to mention that 1st GCD of WHM's rotation is Aero 3 and that's ample of time for mobs to break your TBN when stationary. Please do read my comments again before replying.

You can stop whenever, I know how to play tank well enough. Can you say the same for your case? I seeing a bunch of blues and low purples here.
If you want me to provide the full screenies then say so. You don't need to resort to saying excuses that you think it might be the case. All the 3 runs linked are full runs from 1st pull, I have no obligation to entertain you tbh.

It is important for me that I as a tank can maximize everyone's dps whenever possible. What I sacrifice can reap the team a much better results in the dungeon case where you are taking constant high dmg spikes. If this works for everything else, heck, I will do it for the party BUT that's still depending on the context.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

Sure, let's ignore all the math and resort to personal insults. And how do we do that these days? By checking FFLogs and pick up the odd runs where they parse gray and low purples. Let's pick the ilv316 BRD runs where healers can't find their Medica button and ignore the part in there where it says 40s without healing. Let's also ignore the high purples and orange parses that were in normal kills, not even "FFlog parse runs". Let's also pretend that we do know the other person and assume that none of their Exdeath runs were above 4.3k when the group decides to die to black orbs or stand in fire but when they finally get petrified because random healer couldn't find Medica again a melee sneaks LB2 and Exdad dies and the parse registers a blue.

Did you bother to check my tank runs on the primals? None of them is below 87, that's ilv 316, last week (so still relevant) and without food or pots? Most of them as main tank, meaning defensive play and sneaking into tank stance at one time or another.

Low FFLogs don't mean jack. I mean if I cared so much about my parses I wouldn't use the PF ever. I would also hide my character since I have low purples.

I was not even arguing that DRK is week in AoE in any form. Just the notion of being "king" is misguiding. Each tank brings something to the table. And no matter how well you do DPS wise on your tank, your contribution to speed clear in THAT specific regard is ~20seconds give or take. The rest is in your DDs' hands.

Either way, I'll quote myself again:

I will stop here because it seems to me you are either unwilling to admit that DRK isn't "king" of AoE or do not have enough experience on the other two tanks to know enough.

Cheers
~ Phoenicia ~

[Sarcatica]

snip

I disagree about your stand on FFlogs, it's a mean to check how capable you are. Any good DPS/tanks/healers can get 90%++ and that's a fact, the rest comes from team optimization and strat etc. It's all about the mentality that you have.

My stand on DRK being king in aoe is not misguided, your 2 DPS in dungeons can only go so high that the tank/healer dps as a whole weighs more. You can take your time in dungeons and that's fine. BUT don't try to say that WAR or PLD is king when DRK can speed up, albeit a little, but hey at least you tried. I am basing efficiency on the lowest time required to clear dungeons, if you don't like it then you shouldn't even show up and try to tickle the fact that this whole thing "doesn't matter". This is like the level of people saying DRK is fine when WAR currently actually supercedes DRK in Savage speedruns (please read again, SAVAGE). Yes, 200dps extra matters if you want to push the limit.

[Phoenicia]

I disagree about your stand on FFlogs, it's a mean to check how capable you are. Any good DPS/tanks/healers can get 90%++ and that's a fact, the rest comes from team optimization and strat etc. It's all about the mentality that you have.

And I have these 90s in almost every fight and on multiple jobs in different roles.. Your point?

And again, I'm not claiming any of the tanks is "king". But if there's a king it sure isn't DRK. PLD and WAR both mitigate more damage so more healer DPS just for having them. Just check the rest of the forums for the cry-out that is still there for DRK mitigation buffs. And sure, all you want is a 12 minute run? Let me grab my WAR tank and get back to you in a few days after I find my good mates.

Either way I said what I have. See you around.