Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?

[Delily]

I think you're underestimating how irrational a man that's lost everything can be.

Well, beyond that, the guy was a bully and a "tough". When you're the top dog, there's not shortage of people looking to try and take you down a notch or two. He saw 3 vs. 1, and he took the chance. Great line from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. As the WoL, we have to be in tip top shape all the time. It just takes one "punk" to have a lucky night and we're out for the count.

[Kallera]

Well, beyond that, the guy was a bully and a "tough". When you're the top dog, there's not shortage of people looking to try and take you down a notch or two. He saw 3 vs. 1, and he took the chance. Great line from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. As the WoL, we have to be in tip top shape all the time. It just takes one "punk" to have a lucky night and we're out for the count.

I don't know if I should start a new thread for this or stay with this one.

But even during then, and I voiced my complaints then too, saying they are just a tool of everyone else, I didn't feel for the character or for Eorzea.

With 4.1 approaching, I think this is the first time I'm not looking foward to the msq, because the times when everyone is singing the WoL's accolades just makes me feel lost and uninvested. And I'm not arguing that everyone should change to suit my tastes, that's silly-- but I don't like or feel for the character anymore.

[Delily]

I don't know if I should start a new thread for this or stay with this one.

But even during then, and I voiced my complaints then too, saying they are just a tool of everyone else, I didn't feel for the character or for Eorzea.

With 4.1 approaching, I think this is the first time I'm not looking foward to the msq, because the times when everyone is singing the WoL's accolades just makes me feel lost and uninvested. And I'm not arguing that everyone should change to suit my tastes, that's silly-- but I don't like or feel for the character anymore.

I think the core problem here is that the story of FFXIV doesn't appeal to you. I also think you're missing a central theme to the game, which is that being The Hero isn't all that great.

The bold part has come up with several instances within the MSQ and the side quests, and it's the fact that when you are The Hero, people look to you as a tool to solve their problems and ignore your emotions and thoughts. To most people you are The Hero so long as you keep solving their problems. Once you stop, they no longer are concerned with you. You will occasionally get people who are genuinely grateful for what you did, but people will come to you with their problems and expect you to solve them in a way which has no risk for that person, because, after all, you're The Hero, right?

Beyond that, many people have this tall tale of what you can do. Many people think you're some omnipotent godlike being, when the reality is that you're just as fragile as they are. We have the Echo and Blessing of Light which protect us from the primals and do let us do a few things above and beyond the average person, but the reason we can survive the vast majority of our fights is because we do have quite a number of allies and we are a highly experienced and skilled warrior. Sure we can defeat primals and Nidhogg (with the help of other adventurers), but that doesn't keep alive should someone decide to try to lance us in the back, or prevent some punk from taking a popshot at us when the Echo kicks in and suddenly we're incapacitated.

Furthermore, being the Hero isn't all that great when we can't save the people closest to us. Ysayle? Papalymo? Haurchefant? All our powers and skills did nothing for them. You're essentially complaining about a core theme to the story, which I will admit, has taken the team some time to develop.

Contrast this theme with LoTRO, WoW, and FFXI, in which you are not the Hero. In those games, you are highly skilled, and involved in world shaking events, but stories of you're adventures never reach the common man, so many of them don't treat you as such. The people involved in those events know you and what you did, and depend on you, but the outside world knows little of you.

[Kallera]

I said I complained about that back then...

[Alleo]

Why does anyone oppose the WoL these days? I can excuse the bumpkins who have never heard of the person, but ...tons of people have. (And yes I understand it would be a boring game if people surrendered to us, but "because it would be a boring video game" surely Is not what would go through their heads.

Not everyone might believe all the stories around the WoL. Maybe some think that those are just lies that are told to make the people happy or maybe they dont care about their own life. Also lets not forget that even with our big amount of power we are still mortal enough that we could fall to deathly wounds. We are also not free to ignore stuff like poison. (But I do agree that its getting a bit unbelievable the more false gods we slay..but thats sadly the ground points of this story..imo enemies like Thordan should have come way later because they should have been way too powerful for us to beat)

So they might have just had so much anger and rage that they did not care if they dont stand a chance and thought that it would be better to at least try it. And there are enough stories even in real life where people suddenly grew beyond their limit in certain situations.

[Cilia]

Of course, there are some who would argue that a soldier has both the right and the responsibility to walk away at any time, and therefore DOES bear the full burden of responsibility. It is notable that very few of the people who argue so have ever been soldiers themselves...

Yo. (I sure hope my old airbase makes it out of all this tension with North Korea OK... not that I ever got deployed, but even so.) While soldiers are expected to follow orders, they are also expected to question orders if those orders go against the rules of war... like firing on non-combatants... and hospitals... and friendly fire... and are expected to treat defeated enemy soldiers and POWs with dignity and respect. Probably why that wounded Imperial from Specula Imperatoris resonated so strongly with me. No, soldiers don't need pity, but they don't need or deserve contempt either.

Ahem. Back on point. The Warrior of Light is a soldier - a provisional one in one of the three Grand Companies, or alternatively one conscripted by Hydaelyn to serve Her will. While we work primarily with the Scions and operate independently of the Alliance, it is often in conjunction and with the approval of those selfsame Grand Companies. The Scions are, in effect, the Eorzean Alliance's Special Forces unit when it comes to military action anymore. The Warrior of Light themselves is just a pawn on the chessboard (or rather a queen), not the hand that moves.

The Warrior of Light is not legally obligated to do what they do, but most would argue that, with the power they have, the Warrior of Light is indirectly responsible for any bad things that happen they could have prevented. To use Spider-man's age-old aphorism, "with great power comes great responsibility."

Back to the original point... Lyse never calls Fordola a monster anyway. She does call her a "murderer, butcher, traitor" and "coward." All are true except the "traitor" clause, since Fordola only ever fought for the Imperial cause. (Or more accurately her own cause, though that lines up very closely with the Imperial cause.)

I've... blathered long enough. Hanging up the coat till 4.1.

[Alien_Gamer]

The Warrior of Light, however, does not get this pass. While they do cooperate with the Scions, they are their own agent, and are under no obligation to do what they do, in the way that a soldier is obligated to follow their orders. They act because they choose to do so. I don't mean by this to suggest that the WoL is a murderer or an evil person, but they ARE bearing a great deal of responsibility that a rank-and-file soldier wouldn't be expected to bear.

In the MSQ quests "The Scions of the Seventh Dawn" Minfillia literally asks you to join them and in "A Wild Rose by Any Other Name" you accept and join their organization. The Scions are a military organization that participates in combat operations of all sizes. We happen to be their ultimate weapon, but we are still the weapon not the one in control.

Likewise in "the Company You Keep" you are literally asked to join a grand company which are the military forces for Eorzea and we literally hold a rank in that GC. They send us on missions to do things just like any other soldier. The main difference is the power of us as a weapon as opposed to the NPC soldiers.

Just like in any other organization, military or not, the more capable you are of handling a situation the more you'll be entrusted with. Just because you are entrusted with a lot of responsibility does not mean you aren't a soldier.

So how are we not a soldier that is obligated to follow orders?

[TinyRedLeaf]

I don't know if I should start a new thread for this or stay with this one.

With 4.1 approaching, I think this is the first time I'm not looking foward to the msq, because the times when everyone is singing the WoL's accolades just makes me feel lost and uninvested. And I'm not arguing that everyone should change to suit my tastes, that's silly-- but I don't like or feel for the character anymore.

As Delily explained, there's not much that can be done about this, as the dissonance you feel stems from a fundamental disagreement with how the FFXIV team wants to develop the story, which, by the way, is a huge step in the right direction for many long-time Final Fantasy fans, like this guy on reddit:

FF games have always had a special place in my heart, but I haven't really been able to recapture the feeling of playing the older ones with any of the latest entries. This game, though, totally nails the vibe of the series and makes me feel like I'm a kid again. I can't stop smiling the whole time I'm playing the main story.

The biggest thing that I think sets this game apart from others is the player character development. I've never played a game where I felt more in touch with my character. A big part of this is in the character creator, glamour system, and just the quality of the graphics. There are so many options and everything is so nice looking that my character really feels unique.

So many games, like Skyrim for example, let you save the world over and over and no one even acknowledges it. This game really builds you up, to the point where you feel like you're actually the Warrior of Light doing these great things. It's weird to me to think that there are so many other people playing the same story, because it really does feel like an individual experience.

Same material, but wildly different and opposing opinion. Who would have thunk, eh?

This also lies at the heart of my fierce annoyance with players like you who keep insisting that Lyse is horribly written character. As I've argued before, that's just a matter of fundamental differences in interpretation of her character development, and not actually a fair review of the effort taken to write her character in Stormblood.

But, that's an argument for another thread, just like any further discussion about whether WoL is an unrelatable Gary Stu/Mary Sue character should really be taken elsewhere, or in a new thread if need be.

[Raqrie_Tohka]

As Delily explained, there's not much that can be done about this, as the dissonance you feel stems from a fundamental disagreement with how the FFXIV team wants to develop the story, which, by the way, is a huge step in the right direction for many long-time Final Fantasy fans, like this guy on reddit:

Very interesting and thought provoking, didn't know about the reddit thing before.

But what if some of us don't actually want to save the world ourselves, and just want to sit in a house, drink tea, manage supplies and equipment for someone else who does? What if I know myself not worthy of being the hero? What if even as the hero, I'd rather there be multiple heroes, so that one may share the joy of "saving the world", with others? What if, while knowing all this, yet I am still saving the world as if it was my birthright, can one be forgiven for feeling a bit of unease, being unsettled, in how things are weirdly working out like this?

What if, deep down, I do want to save the world, yet in all my combined experience, knowledge and personality, I "know" that if this goes on in the blissful way it does, it won't stay happy forever, and this has me worried, not just for me, but for the world? For instance, now that we've killed the crown prince, and angered the Garlean empire, will they not strategic-bomb out all of Ala Mhigo, then send 3 full legions to ravage Eorzea in revenge? Yet the resistance fighters and Lyse, oblivious and carefree, are wholly unknowing, and unprepared. But who can blame them, they just won their homeland back. Yet, some of us start worrying earlier than others do, and take joy only later than others do, in hope that others may live with just a bit less worry, and just a bit more joy.

"Saving the world" as a concept has its own beauty indeed, and nowhere would I ever suggest to the devs to stop letting the world be saved. Note that I didn't say it as "us saving the world". While it would be quite nice for us to be the ones saving the world, the beauty of the world being saved can be appreciated even without us being the ones, or being the only ones, responsible for saving the world. If the world was truly worth saving, if the world was something we truly loved, we would see it saved no matter what. We shouldn't need to be coaxed and pampered to do it. What some of us would simply wish to see, is for the devs to "show, not tell". Show us the world, in all its beauty and cherish, that we ourselves would wish to save it. Instead of "telling" us that, with power, with responsibility, with everyone's expectations on you, go on and save the world, and reap the rewards.

Players are not dogs. We should not need to be "trained" with prestige, rewards, enticement. Some of us would even rather choose to live as a dog, though with the respect of a human ... than as a human, with the bestiality of a dog. But that is a topic for another time.

[Jyera]

Players are not dogs. We should not need to be "trained" with prestige, rewards, enticement. Some of us would even rather choose to live as a dog, though with the respect of a human ... than as a human, with the bestiality of a dog. But that is a topic for another time.

I admit I am very confused where you were going with this.