Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?

[LineageRazor]

For real life, what I think is soldiers don't need our pity and empathy for losing nonexistent "purity and innocence". They need our respect and acknowledgement.

I don't feel like it's quite right to bring soldiers in as a comparison to what the Warrior of Light does. It's almost universally accepted that when soldiers kill in the line of duty, they are not murderers. The ultimate culpability lies with the folks who deployed those soldiers; they are the ones that bear the burden of responsibility. Soldiers, as a part of their training, are broken down and built up to be weapons; when a soldier kills, they are the weapon, and the ones giving the orders are the ones pulling the trigger. So, even if you buy into the idea of purity and innocence, that purity and innocence is NOT lost when a soldier kills. (Naturally, there's some grey area; soldiers are expected to balk if their orders are particularly heinous. But that grey area is incredibly subjective.)

The Warrior of Light, however, does not get this pass. While they do cooperate with the Scions, they are their own agent, and are under no obligation to do what they do, in the way that a soldier is obligated to follow their orders. They act because they choose to do so. I don't mean by this to suggest that the WoL is a murderer or an evil person, but they ARE bearing a great deal of responsibility that a rank-and-file soldier wouldn't be expected to bear.

Of course, there are some who would argue that a soldier has both the right and the responsibility to walk away at any time, and therefore DOES bear the full burden of responsibility. It is notable that very few of the people who argue so have ever been soldiers themselves...

[SendohJin]

We started a larger war to prevent a smaller one, because we refused the option of diplomacy.

where did we have that option? you realize at best the WoL is a First Lt., there are 9 ranks above that. the WoL is a cross between a top Navy Seal type and a 007-type of operative, these people don't determine policy.

I would like nothing better than for the WoL to be punished for all they've done

like what specifically?

tldr: divine selection makes us retroactively "the right side".

we're on the right side because we almost always fight on the side of the oppressed. we win a lot of the times because of divine selection but that's not what puts us on the right side.

[Raqrie_Tohka]

I don't mean by this to suggest that the WoL is a murderer or an evil person, but they ARE bearing a great deal of responsibility that a rank-and-file soldier wouldn't be expected to bear.

Of course, there are some who would argue that a soldier has both the right and the responsibility to walk away at any time, and therefore DOES bear the full burden of responsibility. It is notable that very few of the people who argue so have ever been soldiers themselves...

Well thankfully no one in this thread is yet saying that all the Garleans we killed could've just "walked away at any time". At least they retained their purity and innocence (and duty, and honour,) when they all died for nothing.

But still, to pity them is an insult. They deserve respect, and acknowledgement. Yes, they are still the enemy.

But at any rate, I don't think asking Zenos to "please, for whatever reason you'd like, just walk away, and no one needs to die" would've worked. Not because he couldn't have swallowed his pride, and gained just enough sanity to listen to us. But because we would've still needed to kill him. The "folks who deployed soldiers" are expecting his death. Friendly "folks". War, is itself the ultimate grey area. The term "soldier", "weapon", recognizes neither friend nor foe.

It is not "evil", per se. But isn't this just pure madness? Absolute insanity? We just stand there at one time as if everything can be fine, and at another time when everything is certainly not? Are we seriously talking about purity and innocence? Can I be forgiven to "subjectively balk" at it? It is madness, even if "subjective madness". There can be order in monstrosity too. And of monstrous things and orderly things, we have had plenty of examples of overlap.

So perhaps I'd apologize for bringing a term as sacred as "soldiers" into something so monstrous as a discussion of the "WoL". No, not evil or murderer. But we are monstrous, and no less than Zenos. Whether we bear the burden responsibly or not, which separates us from him, we are still monstrous.

And if there be pity for monsters, may there be pity for Zenos, Fordola, Yotsuyu, and the WoL as well. We pity not the act, nor its nature, not fate, nor folks. But the concept of being monstrous. The concept of war. The concept of tragedy. Of heinousness. Of disorder. Of un-beauty. Of stressed logic. Of argument between friends. Of unresolved conflict, eternal conflict.

But there can be no "pity" for soldiers, as it is an insult. We may only respect, and acknowledge them. In a forever cold, solemn, distanced way. Perhaps soldiers have the right to empathize with and pity each other. But when they do, it's not for being a soldier. It's for something much farther than that. And thankfully, for that, we may all be allowed to feel in the same way. Something anyone, everyone, anything, everything, may empathize with. Because only so, can it save anyone, everyone, anything, and everything.

Something .. "final".

[Kallera]

In my opinion, The WoL has done a lot, and in asense, that kinda is my problem with the character. Yes,to the betterment of certain folk and to whatever location they are in but...In a world where the point is to have man eventually take control of their destiny it feels like the WoL is also an impediment to this, walking cheat code that they are.

Are they evil? no, more like the monster described either, something I wish I was not playing as. The legend I was never really comfortable being has grown into something too big and central, with a plot armor that makes me question if anything lesser matters, because "of course they'll win. So long as they are 'the chosen one' they will win." I wish I was just an adventurer.

[SendohJin]

so you are just complaining that this is a themepark MMO and not a sandbox?

[Kallera]

so you are just complaining that this is a themepark MMO and not a sandbox?

no.

I do not enjoy the main character, something always feels off or the setting makes me resentful when playing as the "Warrior of Light" and not ...anything else not "the chosen one" really. You can certainly have that kinda of game without this feeling really, that we are this oppressive, unnatural hand upon the setting..

[SendohJin]

you use the word "oppressive" but i don't think you know what it means. our hand didn't save Ysayle, Haurchefant, Moenbryda, or Papalymo did it?

[Delily]

no.

I do not enjoy the main character, something always feels off or the setting makes me resentful when playing as the "Warrior of Light" and not ...anything else not "the chosen one" really. You can certainly have that kinda of game without this feeling really, that we are this oppressive, unnatural hand upon the setting..

No, no we're not. On the contrary, a large part of this game is how little influence and power we have. We are constantly tasked to do things for other people, things that are trivial. Also, for all our power, we're unable to prevent the deaths of the people we care about.

We didn't devise the plan that wrested Doma and Ala Mihgo from the Imperials.
We could stop the Gryffin from unleashing Shinryu.
No matter how often we stop the primals, they just come back.
We don't have the freedom to come and go as we please, a primal pops up, we have to fight it. The Scions are hatching a grand plan, we have to be a part of it.
We are chained by our power.

I would like nothing better than for the WoL to be punished for all they've done

What have we done? Kill people? Have you not paid attention to the fact that Eorzea is a violent place? You walk outside a settlement and there's creatures that kill you. Some members of the Empire literally tried to wipe it off the face of the map. Primals abound. The Ascians are running amok trying to cause more calamaties in order to merge the 13 shards back together. We kill Imperial soldiers, what of it? Conscripted or not, they would kill us if they could. We kill beastmen? What of it? They actively summon primals with the intent to wreak havoc and mayhem. We "killed" Thordan? What of it? He turned himself into a primal. When the other side wants to kill you, there is little chance of peaceful negotiations and deathless solutions.


There's no divine being to punish us. On the contrary, what acts as god has blessed us and continues to support us. You're attempting to apply your morality to a world to which it is not suited, as there cannot, and will never be, a time in which death and killing will not be a part of it. The WoL is not a monster, but a product of the environment in which he lives.

If it really bothers you this much, go do the DRK quests. They specifically deal with these issues.

so you are just complaining that this is a themepark MMO and not a sandbox?

It's less the fact that's a theme park and more the fact the game is heavily story driven. WoW, FFXI, LoTRO, and DAoC are all theme parks, but in each case, you play second fiddle to some NPC. It doesn't change the fact you are a world shaker though.

[Kallera]

If it really bothers you this much, go do the DRK quests. They specifically deal with these issues.

Everyone keeps saying this, and yes I have played the DRK quests. And it still doesn't make sense to me.

Take for example, the lvl 65~ quest, the one with the woman that drugged you, being worked to the bone by the zealot. Now, the zealot could have told you to faff off, and you likely would have offer him regardless, but instead he acts like a robot spouting scripture, pulls out his scepter, and think he can take the killer of Nidhogg...

why?

Why does anyone oppose the WoL these days? I can excuse the bumpkins who have never heard of the person, but ...tons of people have. (And yes I understand it would be a boring game if people surrendered to us, but "because it would be a boring video game" surely Is not what would go through their heads.

And yet, even after playing the DRK quests, I just don't believe in them, or I wish I wasn't playing as them.

[Daralii]

Everyone keeps saying this, and yes I have played the DRK quests. And it still doesn't make sense to me.

Take for example, the lvl 65~ quest, the one with the woman that drugged you, being worked to the bone by the zealot. Now, the zealot could have told you to faff off, and you likely would have offer him regardless, but instead he acts like a robot spouting scripture, pulls out his scepter, and think he can take the killer of Nidhogg...

why?

Why does anyone oppose the WoL these days? I can excuse the bumpkins who have never heard of the person, but ...tons of people have. (And yes I understand it would be a boring game if people surrendered to us, but "because it would be a boring video game" surely Is not what would go through their heads.

I think you're underestimating how irrational a man that's lost everything can be.