All Physical DPS Can Provide Their Own Damage-type Buff Except BRD and MCH

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

While both BRD and MCH are certainly not at a huge loss for not being able to provide their own piercing debuff, I personally would love to see this change. It also kinda makes no sense that the other physical jobs provide their own damage buffs through that applied damage, yet the physical ranged doesn't.

[Xaeth]

There's a couple of reasons why I think it is done like this.

First one is that DPS are foremost grouped as melee and ranged and from that perspective all melee brings vuln up debuffs for their type of damage while the ranged dps doesn't.

There's also the reason for having vuln up debuffs in the first place. If every job that did, for example, piercing damage would bring their own vuln up (assuming it won't stack since it doesn't do at the moment), the reason of it being a vuln up would be pointless since there's no reason for you to bring a vuln up if any person you could possibly buff with said vuln up would have brought it themselves anyway.

That's my two cents on the subject

[HyoMinPark]

I agree with this. Even with the Disembowel nerf, 5% damage increase can certainly add up during an extended fight. I know ranged physical are supposed to be more "support" type jobs, and I have no complaints about that. But, at this point, all DPS outside of SAM have support utility, so that argument kind of falls flat. Especially if you look at logs and see that, in higher percentiles, BRD and MCH are actually pulling higher numbers compared to NINs-- a job that has been in every meta since its inception.

I love BRD, and will never stop maining and raiding with it, but it does kind of suck that, in order for me to reach my full damage potential, I have to have a DRG present for that 5% (among other things--Minuet + Pitch Perfect procs under Battle Litany are AMAZING). Otherwise, my damage will always be 5% less--at the minimum--of what it could be.

[Cetonis]

I know SE doesn't want to balance around fflogs, but rather around group dps. But at some point, they need to square with the reality of the way people are playing their game.

If Dragoon + piercing debuff is weak, then people will be reluctant to play BRD / MCH because they'll always feel gimped (thanks to fflogs) compared to groups with worse (overall) comps.

If Dragoon + piercing debuff is above the curve, you have the situation you have now where one out of four slots is dedicated solely to DRG, another slot to BRD or MCH because Refresh, and then in theory the other two slots are split across six dps.

That puts a lot of pressure on SE to avoid any other overpowered jobs (*cough* Ninja *cough*) or else you have five jobs fighting for one slot, if they can even fend off the other out of BRD or MCH.

And if Dragoon is balanced relative to other melee, then you have a situation where the BRDs/MCHs that care about their numbers are disinclined to join groups that don't have DRG (because fflogs). That'd get kind of ugly too.

I think optimally, you give RDM a piercing debuff (tied to a magic dmg self-buff so that they want to keep it up) on Impact or something. As part of a broader set of changes, obviously.

That way your comp setup is DRG/RDM + BRD/MCH + two out of the other five. And if the former four provided ~2-3% less overall rDPS or something, you would keep the latter two slots reserved for the stronger five.

This would be a little less flexible than SE maybe wants, but it'd be more plausible to balance than a nine job free-for-all, which is roughly what would happen if BRD/MCH could give their own debuff.

[Kabooa]

Solution

Vulnerability Ups belong to the Tanks.
Consolidate it (3 different kinds of PDPS up, really)

Maybe even throw it into Role Actions as a Third Step weaponskill that can combo off any of the second-step hate-combos.

...That thing PVP Butcher's block does? Yeah, let's just do that.

[MiruWest]

And if Dragoon is balanced relative to other melee, then you have a situation where the BRDs/MCHs that care about their numbers are disinclined to join groups that don't have DRG (because fflogs). That'd get kind of ugly too.

Basically this. I refuse to join any group that doesn't have a DRG in it. Now days everyone and their momma upload parses after runs and you got me ****** up if you think ill let someone upload a parse of me with crap numbers because I couldn't get my full potential due to being handicapped by 1 other class.

Ive heard the argument that if they gave BRD/MCH a way to do pierce debuff, it would mean group wouldn't HAVE to bring a DRG. THATS A GOOD THING!!! No class should have a staple stop in a group.

[Phoenicia]

Solution

Vulnerability Ups belong to the Tanks.
Consolidate it (3 different kinds of PDPS up, really)

Maybe even throw it into Role Actions as a Third Step weaponskill that can combo off any of the second-step hate-combos.

...That thing PVP Butcher's block does? Yeah, let's just do that.

Actually that's something I can completely get behind. It works in Tera Online and they override each other so you can't stack 2 tanks for it.

Ive heard the argument that if they gave BRD/MCH a way to do pierce debuff, it would mean group wouldn't HAVE to bring a DRG. THATS A GOOD THING!!! No class should have a staple stop in a group.

Yeah, people cried about how WAR brought "too much utility" in HW because of Storm's Eye (let's be honest, no WAR that cared about their DPS did Storm's Path) because it buffed NIN and the other 2 tanks. Why is it ok for DRG to hog 2 of 3 buffs the BRD can't parse well without? (Disembowel and Battle Litany) and the third being on SCH.

It's also annoying since every group needs MCH/BRD and those won't join without DRG. And since tanks like the aggro help from NIN and the others like Trick Attack, that's 3 of 4 slots locked. The fourth is just a competition between 3 casters and the "other p.ranged DPS".

[Rawrz]

Why is it ok for DRG to hog 2 of 3 buffs the BRD can't parse well without? (Disembowel and Battle Litany) and the third being on SCH.

You forgot AST. How is it fair that a bard in a comp with an ast, will do more damage than a comp without?

Its not fair on FFlogs but, SE isn't about padding. They design content that should be passable by all comps.

Had a DRG get fed balance 60% of V1s just to land 96 percentile. No spread balances. I was still above him in dps at 98 percentile at the time. How was it fair that I didn't get that 60% uptime and reign King of the logs for the week? Welp SE designed classes to synergize, but still be passable in any composition and guess what. We cleared. They already nerfed DRGs disembowel to make them less important to BRDs/Mchs/RDMS(lul.)

[KDSilver]

I know ranged physical are supposed to be more "support" type jobs

When you se what a bard and a machinist are able to do on damages with the proper comp, then they totally failed their conception of "the more support you have, the less dps yo do".

[Phoenicia]

You forgot AST. How is it fair that a bard in a comp with an ast, will do more damage than a comp without?

I agree with you, but it's not a matter of FFlogs alone. while you bring a valid point with FFLogs, I'm talking about sillier things like a PF with random members locking jobs in hopes of selfish gains from synergized buffs that rarely synergize in PF. I'm not gonna go over that silliness but going to talk about the basic buff synergy like DRG and BRD or slashing debuff or magic vs physical buffs.

The problem with DRG is BRD and MCH won't join without a DRG. But everybody and their uncle wants a BRD or a MCH in their group. This locks a DRG in as well. Let us not forget how dang good DRG is. It is not like "Oh DRG is bad but we take it for BRD". You want a DRG anyways because it does decent DPS and buffs everyone. Here's a funny joke: BRD is the class that benefits the most from crit buffs.

Also look at how PLD/DRK is the preferred progression comp (regardless if still true or not), this will lock SAM/NIN in one of the melee slots.

Because of the above "locks", the meta is locked to DRG, NIN, BRD, MCH even though individually those are in the lowest 5 (with RDM being lowest). But because of how well their buffs synergize, you end up with the biggest raid DPS. Yet you cannot find a similar synergy between any of the other 5 DPS jobs. There is no 100% up-time magic vulnerability in the game for casters for example. I personally do not see why it doesn't exist either. I mean if the physical "meta" exists, a "magical meta" should also exist to give the excluded classes a chance. You end up taking PLD and DRK (part of their kit is magical), 2 casters and whatever others that buff them. With 2 casters Manashift can cover for the lack of Refresh maybe in case BRD/MCH don't fit that meta. But this is another topic for another day.

Remember when NIN refused to do its own slashing and the other two tanks wouldn't wanna be without a WAR? This locked WAR as one of the two tanks in HW.

Your example of AST's buffs doesn't matter as much because there are 3 healers and 2 slots to take any two. The difference between having AST or no AST isn't so big either. SCH brings consistent powerful buffs and WHM is better than AST at both HPS and DPS. Healers are also rare so on PF you'll take any that come. Same is true with tanks.

Whereas we have 9 DPS jobs and we only pick 4 of them. Also there are far more DPS players than tanks and healers combined. The thing that seems to affect DPS choice and really separates them the most is damage increasing utility. And since not all the utility is wanted, classes without the important utility have to go. Have you ever seen a group insist on taking MNK for Mantra or Brotherhood? #DeleteMNK. You end up the ones that have utility you want, and the ones that buff those that do.

This dependency on others to provide "crucial" 100% up-time buffs to important or highly sought after classes fixes the party setup. SE did nerf a lot of the utility but mandatory buffs still exist.

~ Phoenicia ~