Why CNJ > WHM & THM > BLM does make sense: A canoical study.

[Exni]

You are asserting that the living weapons of CNJ and the bone-carved weapons of THM are irrelevant.
*CNJ's Church versus THM's crypt
*CNJ's respect of protection versus THM's respect of revenge
*CNJ's Creation background versus THM's Destruction background.

This basically sums up the OP's original post.. which just seems like another heavily biased "interpretation" of this game lore. We could create this 'made-up' concept versus that 'made-up' concept all day and it wouldn't have any relevance to the OP's claim of a "canonical study". All you would have to do is 'glance' at the slew of BLM lore in Final Fantasy's long history and could immediately associate it to current XIV CNJ and it's lore. Not beating a dead horse, the dev's are obviously free to take the story where they want too, but "a canonical study" to try to explain it away... really?

[NadienKirisame]

This basically sums up the OP's original post.. which just seems like another heavily biased "interpretation" of this game lore. We could create this 'made-up' concept versus that 'made-up' concept all day and it wouldn't have any relevance to the OP's claim of a "canonical study". All you would have to do is 'glance' at the slew of BLM lore in Final Fantasy's long history and could immediately associate it to current XIV CNJ and it's lore. Not beating a dead horse, the dev's are obviously free to take the story where they want too, but "a canonical study" to try to explain it away... really?

I'm going to go with canonical study in the sense of FFXIV canon not final fantasy as a whole canon... at least for most of what he said I would say...

The cat is bemused =-.-=

[Duuude007]

CNJ's classic spell names which derive from both houses of magic (and THM's 5 classically-named offensive spells) are the only basis that we have from the previous titles, when specifically discussing spell balance.
How could you possibly base who deserves what job on that alone?

[Duuude007]

CNJ's classic spell names which derive from both houses of magic (and THM's 5 classically-named offensive spells) are the only basis that we have from the previous titles, when specifically discussing spell balance.
How could you possibly base who deserves what job on that alone?

I'm going to go with canonical study in the sense of FFXIV canon not final fantasy as a whole canon

+1 for that. Each title was a new adaptation with some similar underlying themes. The few exceptions were simply because they were direct sequels in the same world, like X-2, Revenant wings, XIII-2, etc.

In fact, since when has the term "Thaumaturge" ever been used in an earlier FF game? I only know of one instance:

There were no so-named WHM's or BLM's in FFXIII, but there was a paradigm called "Thaumaturge" which was made up of 2 Ravagers (aka nukers) and a Medic (aka healer). Does that mean in this game, we should assume a THM is 2/3 nuker and 1/3 Healer? Which new mage job does that best fall in line with?

[NadienKirisame]

CNJ's classic spell names which derive from both houses of magic (and THM's 5 classically-named offensive spells) are the only basis that we have from the previous titles, when specifically discussing spell balance.
How could you possibly base who deserves what job on that alone?



+1 for that. Each title was a new adaptation with some underlying themes. The few exceptions were simply because they were direct sequels in the same world, like X-2, Revenant wings, XIII-2, etc.

As I figure it was more of a misunderstanding... While everyone else is trying to see it in a more "All of Final Fantasy" way you are trying to show it to them in "As Final Fantasy XIV goes" way. Through the lore of this game and the way the guild members and such speak of their order so to say.

The cat is talkative =^o^=

[Wynn]

The only references you have shown indicate that the temple of Thal, represented by the Thaumaturges, is part of a larger entity which includes the temple of Nald, however the representatives of Nald have not yet been revealed. This is not proof, it is conjecture, just like the statement "Nowhere in the pilgrim diaries and journals did it say that aliens weren't involved in the origin of Thanksgiving."... is conjecture.


The fact that FFXIV has guilds at all for DoM is a switch up, and since the only other MMO following the FF theme is FFXI does not establish that this game has to be exactly the same.

Not every game had magitech, or materia, or time travel, or two moons, but some did.

Change happens, its only reasonable to expect that. Since THM is a new animal with different tricks doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a place in FF annals of history.

Ultimately, (and mind you this is only considering spells-not lore)
The contrast that THM and CNJ spells presently have is:
CNJ: The 6 base elements, 3 attuned to light, 3 attuned to dark, in balance
THM: A balance of light and dark elements

I submit that because the differences here are so subtle, they are not a useful basis for which to determine what class is better aligned with the WHM and BLM jobs. Because of this, I wrote up the OP, as those details are, in fact, reliable established contrasts.

The Thaumaturges? Aye, I know a bit of their ways. Theirs is the Order of Nald'thal. Split into two sects here in Ul'dah, it is. And each with its own temple--Milvaneth Sacrarium and Arrzaneth Ossuary.

You're wrong. Just admit it.

[NadienKirisame]

You're wrong. Just admit it.

Are you sure he completely wrong... if you look at the words two sects.

sect [sekt] Show IPA
noun
1.a body of persons adhering to a particular religious faith; a religious denomination.
2.a group regarded as heretical or as deviating from a generally accepted religious tradition.
3.(in the sociology of religion) a Christian denomination characterized by insistence on strict qualifications for membership, as distinguished from the more inclusive groups called churches.
4.any group, party, or faction united by a specific doctrine or under a doctrinal leader.

They may be THM's but they are a different sect of THM and your character is not part of that other sect is it?

The cat is bemused =-.-=

[Duuude007]

You're wrong. Just admit it.

Challenge accepted. Let's include the part of that quote you so conveniently omitted.

Momodi: The thaumaturges? Aye, I know a bit of their ways. Theirs is the Order of Nald'Thal. Split into two sects here in Ul'dah, it is. And each with its own temple--Milvaneth Sacrarium and Arrzaneth Ossuary. The Sacrarium's notorious for turnin' away visitors and novices. But the thaumaturges of the Ossuary welcome even lay adventurers into their halls to train.

See the distinction? THM is mentioned for Ossuary, specifically. It would be conjecture to assert that nowhere in the log does it say THM wasn't part of the Sacrarium. Which is exactly what you are trying to do.

[Wynn]

Challenge accepted. Let's include the part of that quote you so conveniently omitted.



See the distinction? THM is mentioned for Ossuary, specifically. It would be conjecture to assert that nowhere in the log does it say THM wasn't part of the Sacrarium. Which is exactly what you are trying to do.

No, there is no distinction. All she is saying is you can't join the sacrarium, but you can join the ossuary. What I posted, I posted because that's all that needs to be posted. It is clear cut and dry. Learn English.

[NadienKirisame]

No, there is no distinction. All she is saying is you can't join the sacrarium, but you can join the ossuary. What I posted, I posted because that's all that needs to be posted. It is clear cut and dry. Learn English.

What if since they are two sects the Ossuary sect group is called THM while the sacrarium sect group has another name... sort of like different religious groups...

The cat is bemused =-.-=