Why CNJ > WHM & THM > BLM does make sense: A canoical study.

[Neptune]

Be at the "Blue Oyster" on 5th at 7pm. All yu are confussed about the universe will be proven to you at that point.

lol

can·on1   [kan-uhn]
noun
A rule or law enacted by a council or other competent authority.

So you claim to be a competent authority. Moreso than the Dev team. Tell me then sir, why did they establish the npc's which say these things that contradict your assertions?

You challenge THM is WHM because of Ressurect. I Challenge that this is inadmissable evidence because CNJ has Raise (not to mention raise II and rebirth)

You challenge THM is WHM because of superior astral-based skills. Here are the true ratios:

THM
Umbral-based skills:29
Astral-based skills: 5

CNJ
Umbral-based skills:19
Astral-based skills:30

uh.. what? i claim to be an authority? do you even know what a canon is? it's an accepted, traditional body of work. one game doesn't define a canon, the entire final fantasy series does. I like what you did at the bottom, that's a start. As you can see CNJ has 19 Umbral spells. Why don't you put that in your OP, take out the reference to canon, and stop saying you have supporting evidence in your OP for white mage / black mage history.

[Duuude007]

...and 150% as many astral spells... my point which seems to elude you is despite the fact that there are more Astral skills for CNJ and more Umbral skills for THM is that there IS some gray area, some overlap. Because of this overlap, I assert that those details are inadmissable.

Let's omit the overlap, and see what we have, eh?

THM has 10 more Umbral based skills than CNJ
CNJ has 25 more Astral based skills than THM

If you wish, I can add that detail to the OP, as it is also entirely factual.

... Just saying.


Edit: This made me laugh:

Facts:
THMs have more astral abilities than CNJs They also have far more traditional WHM spells.

Good luck explaining that with evidence.

[Wynn]

What exactly are you considering astral and umbral? Is it the individual elements? If so, you'd be wrong.

Astrally/Umbrally alligned elements are still elements in their own right. For example: Take a pus gnat. Lightning based. You are probably saying that makes them astral, so then umbral aligned spells should hurt it. You'd be partially right. Hit it with earth and it's toast. Hit it with water however.... But isn't water umbral? No, it's water. Real umbral magic will hurt it pretty bad though.

It's like saying sitting down to eat sugar, raw eggs, butter, flour, baking soda, and salt is the same as sitting down to eat a piece of cake. Anyone would tell you you're crazy for making that suggestion. Umbral is umbral. Astral is astral. And the elements are the elements.

And really, that's a stupid argument anyway because for every astrally aligned element in the CNJs spell list there is an umbrally aligned element. Additionally, TP moves are irrelevant. We don't see melees becoming mages because some of their TP attacks are element based. Spells are all that matter when discussing abilities in this discussion, since those are the only things that can be considered "canon" and it is clear as day who has the lion share of "canonical" BLM spells. Hint: It isn't Thaumaturge.

[Duuude007]

Astral/Umbral alignment is listed in the dusty tomes at both guilds, and is very specific in stating the elements that defer to which polar existence.

This is not FFXI; It is FFXIV, where both classes do exist; Classes which were rebalanced to allow soloability early in the game, and SE has provided backgrounds for both, that we can use to determine their potential. Including during character creation.

Why do you refuse to defer to the rules the Developers have established since launch?

[Rentahamster]

The fact that this is even an issue in the first place amazes me. To each his own, I guess.

[Wynn]

Astral/Umbral alignment is listed in the dusty tomes at both guilds, and is very specific in stating the elements that defer to which polar existence.



These are very lofty, absolute assertions you are making.

You are asserting that the living weapons of CNJ and the bone-carved weapons of THM are irrelevant.
*CNJ's Church versus THM's crypt
*CNJ's respect of protection versus THM's respect of revenge
*CNJ's Creation background versus THM's Destruction background.

All of this and more you submit as irrelevant.

If that were the case, if FFXI spells was the only basis for your argument, then CNJ would be the equivalent of a Sage ( i.e. a meld of WHM and BLM), and THM would not exist, since only 4 spells (debuffs, I might add) have historical reference.

...but lucky for us, this is not FFXI; It is FFXIV, where both classes do exist were rebalanced to allow soloability early in the game, and SE has provided backgrounds for both, that we can use to determine their potential. Including during character creation.

First of all, don't put words in my mouth. I said when discussing abilities the only thing that matters is spells. Radiance does not exist in previous installments. It is not "canonical." It's just more conjecture on your part in trying to argue your claim.

As for your starred statements, I've refuted every last one of them in previous posts. I do not need to do so again.

[NadienKirisame]

The fact that this is even an issue in the first place amazes me. To each his own, I guess.

Actually knowing human behavior one could have seen this coming before the game even came out... Humans will fight/argue with each other of the silliest things...

The cat is amused =^.^=

[Duuude007]

I've refuted every last one of them in previous posts. I do not need to do so again.

Refuted, hmm? You have proven elements that exist in the game, and have existed since launch, as wrong. How delightfully ironic of a statement.

[Wynn]

Refuted, hmm? You have proven elements that exist in the game, and have existed since launch, as wrong. How delightfully ironic of a statement.

I've proven how you are wrong in the inferences you made in those statements. Obviously you haven't been paying attention or just ignoring the facts. Doesn't surprise me though that you would continue to claim you are correct. Even when faced with irrefutable proof that the Ossuary and the Sacrarium are the same order you continue to try and justify how you are right.

[Duuude007]

I've proven how you are wrong in the inferences you made in those statements. Obviously you haven't been paying attention or just ignoring the facts. Doesn't surprise me though that you would continue to claim you are correct. Even when faced with irrefutable proof that the Ossuary and the Sacrarium are the same order you continue to try and justify how you are right.

I've refuted every last one of them in previous posts. I do not need to do so again.

The only references you have shown indicate that the temple of Thal, represented by the Thaumaturges, is part of a larger entity which includes the temple of Nald, however the representatives of Nald have not yet been revealed. This is not proof, it is conjecture, just like the statement "Nowhere in the pilgrim diaries and journals did it say that aliens weren't involved in the origin of Thanksgiving."... is conjecture.


The fact that FFXIV has guilds at all for DoM is a switch up, and since the only other MMO following the FF theme is FFXI does not establish that this game has to be exactly the same.

Not every game had magitech, or materia, or time travel, or two moons, but some did.

Change happens, its only reasonable to expect that. Since THM is a new animal with different tricks doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a place in FF annals of history.

Ultimately, (and mind you this is only considering spells-not lore)
The contrast that THM and CNJ spells presently have is:
CNJ: The 6 base elements, 3 attuned to light, 3 attuned to dark, in balance
THM: A balance of light and dark elements

I submit that because the differences here are so subtle, they are not a useful basis for which to determine what class is better aligned with the WHM and BLM jobs. Because of this, I wrote up the OP, as those details are, in fact, reliable established contrasts.