Dear Healers who don't DPS

[Jollyy5]

...

Have a like, if for no other reason, then for the guide you've provided.

I'll have to save this for later, for myself and otherwise.

[Moogly]

Please explain how 6 players intentionally being jerks and insulting a player is even remotely the same as us trying to encourage players to perform the basic functions of their roles in a calm and appropriate manner?

Bonus Challenge!: Try not to use the word "elitist".

Bonus challenge for you : try understanding what I am saying and trying not to make me look like an idiot.

I am ...so lost. You are attacking an epic straw man, here. There are several giant cognitive leaps and bounds between "practiced healers really ought to DPS at least while healing requirements are low and predictable" and "all healers who fail to DPS 100% of the time are trash." It seems that you are attacking the latter position, not the former, and I don't see many people around here arguing the latter.

I am trying to tell you that elitist mindset you're instilling in the community by :
- making healer dps look like the only correct way of playing
- because you keep saying pure healer are bad players
is more than enough breeding soil for jerks to yell on pure healer, even if YES, I understood you're not like them. But everyone is not like you, and there are lots of jerks out there, from 6 to 66 years old.
And the koike incident is a real life case to remind you that the act of a few can have consequences for the whole community.

But expecting people from varies backgrounds who play an mmo to simply get along and accept certain gameplay styles is never going to happen.

Here we are !
Finally.
Yes, this is exactly what we have right now in ffxiv - a laidback friendly community, except for a few jerks, let's say 2-3% of my roulettes.

But keep doing forum subjects like this one.
Keep imposing standards used in top tier groups to a mostly casual community.
And believe me in no time, you will get the wow community in which you get a 1 or 2 jerk in every. single. dungeon. And I played legion at launch... wow... it got even better than when I last quit...

For Taike below :

So not only are you calling his playstyle wrong (which it objectively is, just like refusing to DPS as a healer), but you even go further to insult (that's what you would call it right) him, calling his behaviour "crazy". Can you now see this contradiction many people have been trying to point out in your own posts?

When did I even remotely said that sword oath tanking was wrong, if thats what you're trying to make me say ?
I sword oath tank almost every single boss I fight... But I know how to build initial threat... and I know when to switch to build back threat. This is what he was doing wrong - not the playstyle...

[Taika]

Bonus challenge for you : try understanding what I am saying and trying not to make me look like an idiot.

You keep ignoring everyone's points. But let me try once again. You say we shouldn't say things like "Refusing to DPS is wrong way to play healer." However, you yourself say things like:

I wasn't telling him to change his playstyle... he was doing it wrong from the beginning : the numerous aggro lost and the death of the rdm was the proof...
If no one wouldve died or stole aggro, nobody wouldve ever told him anything...
Again, if people weren't so obsessed about dps, you wouldn't have those kind of crazy behaviour...

So not only are you calling his playstyle wrong (which it objectively is, just like refusing to DPS as a healer), but you even go further to insult (that's what you would call it right) him, calling his behaviour "crazy". Can you now see this contradiction many people have been trying to point out in your own posts?

When did I even remotely said that sword oath tanking was wrong, if thats what you're trying to make me say ?
I sword oath tank almost every single boss I fight... But I know how to build initial threat... and I know when to switch to build back threat. This is what he was doing wrong - not the playstyle...

Obviously his playstyle was "Sword Oath PLD" (compare to no-DPS healer or ice mage). :P Exactly my point: you yourself have views of what is the "one correct way" of playing certain jobs. You just don't extend that view to healers and DPS.

[era1Ne]

As for your argument, players in Haukke Manor are still low level and very likely new, so I wouldn't be surprised if all players were doing a poor job.

BUT!

They are at least doing something as opposed to nothing.

It was haukke hard, which is easy content and every dd who does the his basic job should be able to kill the add. Which btw wasn't even my point. My point was you can't use "look they are pushing buttons" as an argument or metric, since thats not the tank or dd job. Their very, very basic job is to kill the adds (dd) and tanks holding aggro of everything. "they are at least doing something" Doesn't cut it either, because you can do dmg as an healer and refuse to heal, which would still be doing something, but not doing your job. Yes, sometimes healer forgot their primary job while doing dmg.

Doing something =/= doing something good for your team or playing your role. It is as simple as that. Lets be clear here, i have probably said it hundreds of times, i love healer doing dmg and want them to try doing dmg. But some of the arguments or comparisons are just bad imo.

It's very simple. You observe them and if you have some basic knowledge about healing in this game you'll easily understand. If you're still not sure you can check his search info and gear. If that healer has several jobs leveled it's reasonable to assume that he knows how the game works and joined the dungeon as a healer just to play easymode. If he's wearing savage gear...well...

Yes, you can observe them and this will show you how much experience they probably got. I agree with that, but not with your level or gear, especially savage gear argument. For instance, i could easily log on today and buy black mage savage gear and still would be an very, very inexperienced blm, since the only exp i got is leveling the class to 60 to get the mage title. Nothing else. Gear shows you nothing, because you can easily get gear for other classes than you farmed the tomes or did savage with.

[Taika]

It was haukke hard, which is easy content and every dd who does the his basic job should be able to kill the add.

Completely off topic, but in that instance what usually kills the party is that the party does too much DPS on the boss, in which case the adds appear and will immediately get eaten, leaving the group no time at all to kill them, and the boss will just instantly wipe the group. So instead of the DDs not killing the add(s), it may have been a situation in which they weren't able to do that in the first place.

[Moogly]

Obviously his playstyle was "Sword Oath PLD" (compare to no-DPS healer or ice mage). :P Exactly my point: you yourself have views of what is the "one correct way" of playing certain jobs. You just don't extend that view to healers and DPS.

Well that may sound funny to you, but in top tier groups, since that's what we're so eager to emulate here, tanks spend most of their time in dps stance. So yes, for maximum efficiency, sword oath tanking is the norm, as much as healer dps "is".

Oh, and if my tank doesn't want to sword oath tank, I wont yell at him or say he's bad

[era1Ne]

The major problem about elitists are the simple act of being around them. Only someone who's considered worthy for them can get near. For those people, elitists are nice and helpful people. To the rest of people (the "unworthy"), they act and speaks like a bunch of assholes. They has no problem to show the full extent of their bias. And that can include not only bias against those who's less skilled, but also some other forms of prejudice, like racism, misogyny, homophobia.

I think Gamer Gate is a great example of how an elitist can be nasty when pulled to an extreme.

This maybe be true for some of them, more so in other games, but in FF14, you get easily help. There are discord server, reddit, streamer, who are used/created by good or some would call them elitist people, which help you a lot, if you ask. Additonally you have guys that take hundreds and hundreds of hours to theocraft and others that create guides. Those are all very, very good players. Imo we have to differenciate between elitist or elitists with good players, since most of the good players are nice people. You can't say every soccer fan is an bad person either, because some are bad.

Completely off topic, but in that instance what usually kills the party is that the party does too much DPS on the boss, in which case the adds appear and will immediately get eaten, leaving the group no time at all to kill them, and the boss will just instantly wipe the group. So instead of the DDs not killing the add(s), it may have been a situation in which they weren't able to do that in the first place.

No, they were trying to kill the add asap, but couldn't do it and blamed the healer, because the attack killed them. You could also use my experience with wall and those adds are easily, easily killable and still some people, despite pushing buttons can't do it. They then blamed us, the tank/healer, for it. After seeing for the first time, that some dd can't kill the adds, i killed one of them alone. Which just goes to show that "pushing buttons" isn't necessarly doing your job. Also and this is a bit off topic, someone earlier said something like "Well, if healers do 20% of their job, why should i do 70% then?". Well, i personally never would and this is shown by the fact that i killed one add alone then, but i could have easily said... "Well you don't even do your primary role, so why should i do more than 20% and help you killing those adds?".

I think we can all agree that people should at least try their best and try to do more than there basic task of their respective role. But pushing buttons alone can't be used as an metric..

[Jollyy5]

...

As Taika said, that's off-topic, but here's the thing:

When I said that those DPS and the tank were doing something instead of nothing, I never claimed they were doing a good job or that they knew how their classes work, but they were still putting in some manner of effort by attacking the add at all, as opposed to a healer who isn't putting in any effort by not even pressing a button.

tl:dr: At least pressing buttons = some effort. Not even pressing buttons = zero effort.


As a matter of fact effort is the key word I've been looking for here.

I love it when people put effort into clearing dungeons and whatnot, but I don't get on anyone's case for putting in less effort, save for maybe trying to offer advice.

But when someone is putting in zero effort into reaching a common goal, that's when I have a problem, and standing around doing absolutely nothing, as in not even touching the keyboard, is the definition of zero effort.

AGAIN, new healers who really don't know any better get a pass, and I will give them advice, hoping they take it to heart.

[era1Ne]

As Taika said, that's off-topic, but here's the thing:

When I said that those DPS and the tank were doing something instead of nothing, I never claimed they were doing a good job or that they knew how their classes work, but they were still putting in some manner of effort by attacking the add at all, as opposed to a healer who isn't putting in any effort by not even pressing a button.

tl:dr: At least pressing buttons = some effort. Not even pressing buttons = zero effort.

Maybe my english is the problem here and i cant explain it in a good way. But i'll try. You are right, if we ignore how the game is designed, because as an dd you have to push more buttons to do your basic job, as an healer you have to do less, since in dungeons doesn't need you to push buttons for heals all the time. Thats just game design and some people said the game design decide how the people should play. But in what world is it fair to judge people by smashing buttons and keep ignoring that healers who dont press an button all the time, are not necessarly staying afk? They still have to watch out and heal you in the right moments. If an healer does is primary job aka letting nobody die in an boss fight, then he is doing more than an dd who can't even meet the easiest dmg checks, despite pushing (far) less buttons.

Also, and i have said this so many times, as an dd in dungeons you can't really kill the group, but an healer wo missjudge his healing while he did dmg can. This is a problem not everyone will understand, but asking new healers, most of the time in my experience their problem was that they didn't want to let people die. This may not be for some, but for me this is an understandable reason not to dps. Don't get me wrong, i still encourage and want them to get better aka try to dps, but when someone for example had an horrible experience in an dungeon and doesn't dps in the next run, then thats fine for the moment for me. But for others he would be an healer "who is only doing 20% or not putting any effort in, an lazy netflix watching healer, and so on". Is this fair? Because in the end you can't see the reason someone is not dpsing. It could just be that he is afraid (to try to dps so fast again) and not necessary just an lazy person, who doesn't even try.

But when someone is putting in zero effort into reaching a common goal, that's when I have a problem, and standing around doing absolutely nothing, as in not even touching the keyboard, is the definition of zero effort.

For me putting effort in is doing at least your main job and not pushing buttons. You could easily talk to your girlfriend, make something to eat or talking with your friends and just hitting random buttons as an dd. Thats just as bad as healer watching netflix. As an healer you can't hit random buttons without people dying, because you have to react to the dmg going out and heal as necessary and therefore are playing actively (despite not hitting an button every gcd).

In this context and for me imo, an active dd would be someone who is using their combo and reapply their dots to kill adds and the boss. If there are many adds think about your skill set and use aoe skills. Thinking about and using your skills in a way that makes sense is for me more important than just seeing people hitting random buttons and never put their dots up. DDs, healers or tanks who don't at least think about their skill set are not active imo, as in watching out, thinking about and playing the game. If that makes sense.

[Sebazy]

Don't get me wrong, i still encourage and want them to get better aka try to dps, but when someone for example had an horrible experience in an dungeon and doesn't dps in the next run, then thats fine for the moment for me.

That's kind of an extreme example if you ask me. I'd be very sympathetic to a healer choosing not to DPS on some of the trash pulls we see now, whereas I wouldn't be quite so enamoured with a healer that chose not to do any DPS whatsoever on some of the bosses in the current Expert rotation (Many of which I'll do without casting a single cure). To clarify here, I'm not expecting sprouts to go gungho, decent regen and dot uptimes are enough to get a thumbs up from me for the most part.

Healers with confidence issues are all too common indeed though (My co healer for much of FCOB was a classic case of this) and in most cases I've seen, they've simply been their own worst enemy. Simply opening up and communicating a little helps so much in these situations, yet so few are willing to give it a go.