Dear Healers who don't DPS

[Moogly]

snip

We pointed it out after the first death, right after the last pull before the boss.
And it wasn't me : it was the RDM that died.
He asked the pld to better manage his aggro, can't remember words for words, but it was pretty nicely asked.
But I was indeed the one who suggested to pull on shield, then switch back to sword.

And if I was calling him bad, it was in the sense that he was trying to emulate something that he clearly wasn't able to do. We had one death to prove it, not even taking into account the numerous aggro failure.
Did I told him to stop ? No...
Did I told him to change his playstyle ? No.
The exact opposite actually : I tried to give him a little tip to succeed in what he was trying to achieve, but he was so sure of himself...

And please stop saying that I told him to pull like that...
Read the story carefully : he's the one that out of nowhere just straight out sprinted and mass pulled to the wall in sword oath... not noticing some monsters had stopped following him !
He was the wannabe elitist there... I am really the last person who is going to ask him mass pulls...

We carried him because he was making errors, and despite being told, never tried to correct them, since he was so sure of his skill...
So yes, we carried a pretentious tank who tought he was playing like a pro.

I don't see where there is any hypocrisy in all the things I've said so far.
I always agreed on the fact that healer DPS was efficient.
But I disagree with that gamestyle becoming the reference even if I am using it.
Why ?
Simply out of respect for other players who just dont give a dam about all that elitist rubbish.
But if one wants to play the elitist, he better be good at it cause even if I am not the best player out there, I rarely suck at any of my jobs.

If you don't understand my point, avoid making such assumptions about me or digress to your convenience what I am saying.
Everything you've been pretending here is the exact opposite of what I've been saying so far.
And after having written so much it starts to feel really insulting because you use those lies to make look like the jerk...

[Taika]

What I'm trying to understand here is why you continue to attack a point that virtually no one is making. How many times must it be stated explicitly that it's understandable when new or otherwise inexperienced players don't perform at an ABC standard?

Good question. The first (?) time I explained this to him explicitly was over 2 weeks ago. He just doesn't read what people actually say.

Edit:

If you don't understand my point, avoid making such assumptions about me or digress to your convenience what I am saying.

Your point seems to be that saying things like "refusing to DPS as a healer means you're a bad healer" is somehow causing divide in the playerbase and makes people feel bad. I would like to know do you think the same of phrases such as "refusing to use fire spells means you're a bad BLM", "refusing to use songs makes you a bad BRD", or "refusing to use tank stance makes you a bad tank" - are they also phrases that should be avoided? How about saying "this is the optimal rotation for a Samurai", does that also cause unnecessary bad feelings in those who aren't using it for some reason?

Point is, in a game based on numbers, where performance can be measured by numbers (of course also other things, but numbers are the most central one), there is always one optimal (and thus the best and correct) way of playing each job. Saying "this way of playing is better than that", when it's based on objective facts, should not hurt anyone's feelings.

[Jollyy5]

Let me bust out my ink marker.

We pointed it out after the first death, right after the last pull before the boss.
And it wasn't me : it was the RDM that died.
He asked the pld to better manage his aggro, can't remember words for words, but it was pretty nicely asked.
But I was indeed the one who suggested to pull on shield, then switch back to sword.

And if I was calling him bad, it was in the sense that he was trying to emulate something that he clearly wasn't able to do. We had one death to prove it, not even taking into account the numerous aggro failure.
Did I told him to stop ? No...
Did I told him to change his playstyle ? No.
The exact opposite actually : I tried to give him a little tip to succeed in what he was trying to achieve, but he was so sure of himself...
And please stop saying that I told him to pull like that...
Read the story carefully : he's the one that out of nowhere just straight out sprinted and mass pulled to the wall in sword oath... not noticing some monsters had stopped following him !
He was the wannabe elitist there... I am really the last person who is going to ask him mass pulls...

We carried him because he was making errors, and despite being told, never tried to correct them, since he was so sure of his skill...
So yes, we carried a pretentious tank who tought he was playing like a pro.

I don't see where there is any hypocrisy in all the things I've said so far.
I always agreed on the fact that healer DPS was efficient.
But I disagree with that gamestyle becoming the reference even if I am using it.
Why ?
Simply out of respect for other players who just dont give a dam about all that elitist rubbish.
But if one wants to play the elitist, he better be good at it cause even if I am not the best player out there, I rarely suck at any of my jobs.

If you don't understand my point, avoid making such assumptions about me or digress to your convenience what I am saying.

1. "But I was indeed the one who suggested to pull on shield, then switch back to sword."

You asked him to use Shield Oath, which is no different from us asking for healer DPS.

2. "And if I was calling him bad, it was in the sense that he was trying to emulate something that he clearly wasn't able to do. We had one death to prove it, not even taking into account the numerous aggro failure."

No different from what you are accusing us of.

3. "The exact opposite actually : I tried to give him a little tip to succeed in what he was trying to achieve, but he was so sure of himself..."

You say you weren't trying to make him change his play style, but you were doing exactly that by asking him to use Shield Oath.

4. "We carried him because he was making errors, and despite being told, never tried to correct them, since he was so sure of his skill...
So yes, we carried a pretentious tank who tought he was playing like a pro."

Here you are exercising the exact mindset you are blaming us of.

5. "I don't see where there is any hypocrisy in all the things I've said so far."

The hypocrisy is in you telling us that we shouldn't be criticizing healers who don't DPS, and that asking them to DPS is being elitist. While you are criticizing that tank for storming in while in Sword Oath, and in you trying to tell him to do otherwise, as in: Use Shield Oath.

[Moogly]

Good question. The first (?) time I explained this to him explicitly was over 2 weeks ago. He just doesn't read what people actually say.

And please tell me what is so hard to understand when I say that that kind of mentality, understand elitist mentality, is the one thing that creates toxic players ?
To me, it looks like you guys do not want to see it.

But that's only a minority you would say. Why do I think that the act of a few people matters so much ?

The koike incident :
A famous japanese female ffxiv video blogger (on niconico) was running a raid live, and was recruiting people to help.
6 persons, yea only 6 persons, all from a top 5 tier guild sneaked in.
They also played live on another channel created specially for that occasion.
They were total jerks, made fun of her, screwed the fight by turning the boss in all directions or failing mechanics...
And since they were running parsers, they also made fun of her DPS.
In the end, when some people finally noticed it, they became super agressive, attacking personnaly the blogger.
This lead to naked white roegadyns protests and I think there even was a temp ban for those people.
This is generally the case pointed when people ask why there aren't any official parser in FFXIV.
Nothing technical : it was all about player interaction
And even though the vast majority of the community, if not all, was siding with the blogger, we 10 millions players all payed the price, are still paying, for the misdeed of 6 jerks.

Keep playing it elitist like that, and you'll end up with rotten community like wow's...
And if the community starts to rot because of that elitist rubbish, believe me, you may like it or not, but YoshiP will side with the casual and spit on the elite... I mean they're less than 5% of the player base... money talks here.
At least you've been warned, don't come crying later.

Jolly, you dont understand, read slower...
He was the one trying to pull in sword oath.
I was telling him, start your pull in shield oath in order to build some aggro, then switch back to sword if you want to contribute to dps that much.
This is how you do if you cant overaggro the dps in sword oath.
I wasn't telling him to change his playstyle... he was doing it wrong from the beginning : the numerous aggro lost and the death of the rdm was the proof...
If no one wouldve died or stole aggro, nobody wouldve ever told him anything...
Again, if people weren't so obsessed about dps, you wouldn't have those kind of crazy behaviour...

[Cynfael]

And please tell me what is so hard to understand when I say that that kind of mentality, understand elitist mentality, is the one thing that creates toxic players ?
To me, it looks like you guys do not want to see it.

But that's only a minority you would say. Why do I think that the act of a few people matters so much ?

The koike incident :
A famous japanese female ffxiv video blogger (on niconico) was running a raid live, and was recruiting people to help.
6 persons, yea only 6 persons, all from a top 5 tier guild sneaked in.
They also played live on another channel created specially for that occasion.
They were total jerks, made fun of her, screwed the fight by turning the boss in all directions or failing mechanics...
And since they were running parsers, they also made fun of her DPS.
In the end, when some people finally noticed it, they became super agressive, attacking personnaly the blogger.
This lead to naked white roegadyns protests and I think there even was a temp ban for those people.
This is generally the case pointed when people ask why there aren't any official parser in FFXIV.
Nothing technical : it was all about player interaction
And even though the vast majority of the community, if not all, was siding with the blogger, we 10 millions players all payed the price, are still paying, for the misdeed of 6 jerks.

Keep playing it elitist like that, and you'll end up with rotten community like wow's...
And if the community starts to rot because of that elitist rubbish, believe, you may like it or not, but YoshiP will side with the casual and spit on the elite... I mean they're less than 5% of the player base... money talks here.
At least you've been warned, don't come crying later.

I am ...so lost. You are attacking an epic straw man, here. There are several giant cognitive leaps and bounds between "practiced healers really ought to DPS at least while healing requirements are low and predictable" and "all healers who fail to DPS 100% of the time are trash." It seems that you are attacking the latter position, not the former, and I don't see many people around here arguing the latter.

[Jollyy5]

...

Please explain how 6 players intentionally being jerks and insulting a player is even remotely the same as us trying to encourage players to perform the basic functions of their roles in a calm and appropriate manner?

Bonus Challenge!: Try not to use the word "elitist".

[Wanzer]

Keep playing it elitist like that, and you'll end up with rotten community like wow's...
And if the community starts to rot because of that elitist rubbish, believe, you may like it or not, but YoshiP will side with the casual and spit on the elite... I mean they're less than 5% of the player base... money talks here.
At least you've been warned, don't come crying later.

Hmm. I'm not sure you are on the right thread actually. Most of us understood your point of view, but you can't take a few examples from here and there and use it as an example for the whole community. Especially since you got some really good responses (with arguments based on facts) who made the distinction between lazy players and new/still learning players. You shouldn't ignore this.

And eer... It can be useful, I believe (not only on this thread but, eh) :

It's As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective all over again. Must... Resist... Gifs...

[Taika]

And please tell me what is so hard to understand when I say that that kind of mentality, understand elitist mentality, is the one thing that creates toxic players ?

It's a slippery slope argument. It is entirely possible to discuss optimal gameplay, give people advice and even point out errors in their tactics without being rude or mean to anyone. We should encourage theorycrafting, discussions of optimal playstyle for each job, skillful play and will to improve. We should also encourage keeping up nice and friendly atmosphere. These two are not mutually exclusive even though you try to make them seem so. What we should do, all of us, is actively work for a positive atmosphere, both in game and here on the forums, while discouraging actual bad behaviour, such as player harassment, when we witness it.

Please explain how 6 players intentionally being jerks and insulting a player is even remotely the same as us trying to encourage players to perform the basic functions of their roles in a calm and appropriate manner?

Bonus Challenge!: Try not to use the word "elitist".

This is both funny and relevant.

[Sebazy]

The koike incident :

Say what?

Did you just try to use the Chewbacca defence on this thread?

The Paladin in your example wasn't an elitist IMHO, he was just an idiot. Meh.

I'll also add that a proactive and competitive mentality doesn't create toxic players. Rather toxic players create a toxic atmosphere. It's very possible to be highly motivated and competitive yet about as toxic as a bowl of freshly washed lettuce.

[Anselmet]

/snip

Please explain how obvious bullying equals wanting players to heal when they're is no reason for them to heal. If you stretch any harder you're going to fall off your damn chair. Also no one has condone bullying so far today. (Despite you trying to twist my words to suggest this earlier.)