Dear Healers who don't DPS

[Taika]

Niceness does not mean you are correct, it just means you are nice.

Yes, and in addition to that, directing the discussion to niceness (or lack of it) means you're trying to turn the discussion from what is being said to how it's being said. In which case you're not actually even considering other people's arguments or replying to them, but instead talking about how the other people are talking. Of course it matters how things are being said, but in my opinion things are kept quite civil on these forums (which are very tightly moderated).

In some cases no one was dying they just saw me not doing something optimal and therefor decided to take a giant turd on me. But you know what? When I take what they say with a grain of salt and perhaps think about what they said, I improved in my healing capabilities.

I don't think anyone here is defending or advocating that kind of behaviour though. Sure, you can learn things even from mean people, but those mean people could and should learn to express that "feedback" in a way that doesn't feel like sh*t for the recipient.

[Moogly]

Ten seconds, my friend... Ten seconds, not tenth of a second.

Yes, even ten seconds ! 4 whole GCD !
Easy example : my first run of brayflox : I was equipped with aetherial/vendor gear, haven't yet gotten the full mage set that drops there.
After the first wipe on the last boss, I spent zero time DPSing... because I ran out of mana DPSing on the first try, causing the wipe.
And that meant sometimes spending quite some time, 10 sec or more, doing absolutely nothing : just waiting for my mana to resplenish.
Looking back now, having esuna, SoS mastered, I do feel that I really sucked back then... even tried running a second WHM (Zaza Hya) just to see how I would do in the same conditions, just for the fun.
But after that first clear, I was really feeling satisfied, and really felt I did do my job the best I could... when I now know for sure I could've definitely done better...
But what if someone in the group told me I couldve contributed to DPS to make things go down faster ?
Though I wouldnt, others would've simply quit healing.

The problem with the way you are presenting things, is that you dont seem to really make a difference between begginers and leechers.
Some of you get offended when called elitists : same thing for beginners. Don't accuse newbies of systematically being bad, when they actually give their best.

[Anselmet]

Yes, and in addition to that, directing the discussion to niceness (or lack of it) means you're trying to turn the discussion from what is being said to how it's being said. In which case you're not actually even considering other people's arguments or replying to them, but instead talking about how the other people are talking. Of course it matters how things are being said, but in my opinion things are kept quite civil on these forums (which are very tightly moderated).


I don't think anyone here is defending or advocating that kind of behaviour though. Sure, you can learn things even from mean people, but those mean people could and should learn to express that "feedback" in a way that doesn't feel like sh*t for the recipient.

It's avoiding the topic at hand and when she replies to it I honestly feel she is still ignoring the argument by saying it is a lie. But how is it a lie? And I only pointed out that story as a I've been there but you don't have to take everything as horrid. Did I feel like shit when they did it, yes very much so. But I also feel that a lot of people who are labeled as elitist are not elitist. They're either stupid people trying to act like they're elitist or casual people who have differing opinion from you.

You guys definitely do not like it when people refer to you as "elitists".
Don't refer to pure healers as bad players.
Simple as that.

This right here is why I went to the pains to point out I am not an elitist with my story. Because its just a word that is being tossed around with little thought and lack of meaning.

[Moogly]

And quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of people treating elitists as if they are all terrible people. I've learned more from being around an elitist for a few months than I ever did in three or four years I played this game. An ass hole is not automatically an elitist.

As much as I am pretty sick and tired of people calling newbies and casual bad players.
And I also don't understand.... You say ffxiv is casual oriented, but then what's with the elitist atmosphere then ???
But well whatever...

Then you reach a point in which I will T.O.T.A.L.L.Y disagree with you.
Harsh comments helps getting the info in.
Elitist may be harsh but they are right, so despite their behaviour we better listen to them.
Well, that's a big NO.

I won't develop too much on this, because it's totally drifting out of the subject, so I'll just post a few links.
But it really concerns me as I was fighting on one side of that big argument.
NO, I am definitely againt the Linus Torvalds attitude. You don't have to be a jerk to make things work out.
And I think we will never agree with each other, if you're more on the Linus side.

In fact, I only ever took advice from people who were nice to me, and always ignored the jerks...

edit for the post above :
First my char is female but I am dude pals - hence Moogly on the forum (mix of Mowgly in the disney cartoon... and Moogle) !
I am not playing the game as if I was my character, but rather as if I was following the character's adventures from behind.

So being called an elitist hurts.
A newbie being called bad surely hurts too... and won't give him the will to heal or even resub...

Yes, and in addition to that, directing the discussion to niceness (or lack of it) means you're trying to turn the discussion from what is being said to how it's being said.

I've never ever been against the pro-DPS as I am one myself.
But I think it is worthless to make it the "good" way to play, and to classify the pure healing as a "bad" way to play.
What all this is essentially doing, is dividing of the player base in two groups, having one half pointing the other one as bad.
And then comes all my past stories with wow...

Who cares if we pro DPS are right in the fact that we're playing in the most effective way ?
We have quite a lot of kids playing that game.
And who do you think kids will most likely emulate to look cool ?
The nice guy or the jerk ?

This is the point I ve been trying to get to since the beginning !!!

[Jollyy5]

I should probably clarify, that I'm not upset at new healers that don't DPS, like Taika, I will offer them advice.

Page 67, I very clearly pointed out that I'm not upset at new healers, and that I would give them advice.

...

You were the new player in your story, I would've given you advice.

[miraidensetsu]

(...)I'm sick and tired of people treating elitists as if they are all terrible people. I've learned more from being around an elitist for a few months than I ever did in three or four years I played this game. An ass hole is not automatically an elitist. I have seen some pretty stupid ass holes on this game trying to tell me how to heal on here and they are a hundred percent wrong.

The major problem about elitists are the simple act of being around them. Only someone who's considered worthy for them can get near. For those people, elitists are nice and helpful people. To the rest of people (the "unworthy"), they act and speaks like a bunch of assholes. They has no problem to show the full extent of their bias. And that can include not only bias against those who's less skilled, but also some other forms of prejudice, like racism, misogyny, homophobia.

I think Gamer Gate is a great example of how an elitist can be nasty when pulled to an extreme.

[Miste]

I eases my mind knowing the ffxiv community is still quite far from the kind of annoying (and ridiculous) elitism you find in wow.
But I'm just warning you from certain behaviour in DF that could ultimately lead to that "wow" atmosphere :
- belittling/criticizing of other people based on skill

At one point we ask the pld to at least pull in shield oath to build initial aggro
I answered : "but you're losing aggro !"

people that want to emulate the elite, think they are doing very good (when they obviously aren't)
That tank might have thought he was doing good, since he was using advanced gameplay techniques, but we actually carried him through his numerous mistakes...
In the end, if that tank would have done the stance switching as asked, the dungeon would have run even faster with me DPSing...

It might not look like it to you, but this is definitely belittling coming from a feeling of superiority.

Those kind of little attacks, if you were on the receiving side, how would you take it ?

As much as I am pretty sick and tired of people calling newbies and casual bad players.

You are beginning to lose any logical sense here, there is a lot of hypocrisy going on in your recent posts.

You criticized the tank's playstyle because he wasn't holding aggro. Whether he acted like a jerk afterwards or not you still criticized his playstyle.

Two times you call the tank bad in these quotes. Just because you use opposites to avoid directly using the word "bad" doesn't mean that the message isn't the same in the end.

You insinuate the tank was "carried". You highlight he made a lot of mistakes and therefore leading to the point that the rest of the group was "better than him" because they were able to pick him up and "carry" him to a clear.

You also claim if he would have just listened to you and did what you told him to do then the run would have gone faster. Sounds familiar....almost like the argument that healers should DPS when there is no healing needed in order to make the run go faster.

Cynfael : I consider asking for healers to dps systematically already being kind of elitist. I know, dps as healer is super easy, you should always be casting, mana is cheap, etc...
But some people aren't as good or involved... The latter being the hardest thing for you guys to accept I guess... casuals...
But I really tought I made it pretty clear that I am against any kind of elitism when it is out of context, e.g in DF.

You really need to read everything you have been saying lately. Too much hypocrisy.

If asking healers to DPS is elitist then asking a tank to change stances is elitist as well. Some people aren't as good or involved right? So maybe he just didn't know how to play tank better. It is only DF so why are you telling him to change his playstyle?

Asking a healer who is not DPSing to contribute some DPS is asking them to change their playstyle. You asked that tank to change his playstyle in DF. By your own definition that is elitism. You cannot have double standards.

[magnanimousCynic]

I can't believe this thread is still living. Well, I can believe it, but that's beside the point.

I'll make this super simple; if you have MP to spare and no one needs a heal in the next 2 or 3 GCDs then cast a DPS spell or two, even if it's just your DoTs. The amount of zero DPS healers I see in Expert Roulette who never go below 80% MP is higher than it should be.

[Anselmet]

As much as I am pretty sick and tired of people calling newbies and casual bad players.
And I also don't understand.... You say ffxiv is casual oriented, but then what's with the elitist atmosphere then ???
But well whatever...

It is most certainly not an elitist atmosphere. Just because the norm in ffxiv is to do something you don't agree with does not mean that it is an elitist atmosphere. If it were then sprouts would be getting booted left and right from dungeons and people would be getting kicked left and right for not doing x or for not having x equipment. FFXIV is nothing like that and the majority of the people still help people, still give tips nicely (though I see people who have thin skin who take any criticism poorly). And honestly, I hardly see people on here call people who are casuals bad players. It's people who don't want to follow norms of the game that get called out, which is common place in any given situation. Newbie's of course ARE bad players. They are new to the game, they do not have the skill nor the knowledge that the greater community has. In any game you don't just hatch from an egg and are on par with everyone else, you need to learn. How long that takes you varies from player to player and some are better off then others due to previous experiences in other games. But that doesn't change that they are still new.

Then you reach a point in which I will T.O.T.A.L.L.Y disagree with you.
Harsh comments helps getting the info in.
Elitist may be harsh but they are right, so despite their behaviour we better listen to them.
Well, that's a big NO.

That is not even close to what I said and now you're just paraphrasing what I said to make you feel justified. I pointed out my story that everyone has a bad experience with elitist good and bad it depends how you handle the situation afterwards. You can turn a bad experience into a good one or sit there and plug your ears and do nothing. I said they have more info on how to play optimal in this game. Realizing that I tried what they said and I learned something because that was my experience. Are you going to sit here and tell me they don't? If you want to do more damage, heal, or tank better then the best people to ask are the elitists in this game. Where do you think all the optimal rotations come from? Casuals? They're not the boogie man in this game, ass holes are who are often not even good at this game.

In fact, I only ever took advice from people who were nice to me, and always ignored the jerks...

Once again, you took what I said out of context. Nowhere did I say you should take their criticism I merely pointed out what I did. So good for you.

So being called an elitist hurts.
A newbie being called bad surely hurts too... and won't give him the will to heal or even resub...

Holy, sweet, Halone! Am I some cartoon bad guy to you? I never said people should be called anything. I just pointed out you are tossing out the word elitist with zero weight or meaning. Hell, I bet most of the people sitting here arguing you are casuals like myself. Of course we know that being a jerk is bad, that is like socializing 101. My main issue is you are not addressing anything and just dictating language as an argument. Why don't you go back to my comment and talk about how I blew up your argument on how healing only will result in over healing or the fact I called bull on your view that healers dps kit is not a major deal?

But I think it is worthless to make it the "good" way to play, and to classify the pure healing as a "bad" way to play.

The heart of the matter is those who are not dps'ing and purely healing are going against the norm. It is their choice if they wish to only heal, but much like society when you go against the norm you will receive backlash from certain individuals. However, if they are new that does not mean they should not be encouraged to learn what the main body of ffxiv does. If they then decide to not dps, that is on them. But expecting people from varies backgrounds who play an mmo to simply get along and accept certain gameplay styles is never going to happen. This is not a WoW exclusive attitude, it purely reality.

And who do you think kids will most likely emulate to look cool ?
The nice guy or the jerk ?

FFXIV is not rated E. It's rated T. And while 13 year olds can be impressionable they certainly know right from wrong. It is up to their parents to decide if their kid should be playing FFXIV, not the community.

[Cynfael]

And as expected you keep ignoring all the arguments put in front of you by voluntarily or not, putting all non DPSing healer in the same bag.... while I desperatly try to explain to you guys that everybody has its own reason for not DPSing... And that stubborn attitude of not wanting to understand that, well, some people just aren't as good as you are...

What I'm trying to understand here is why you continue to attack a point that virtually no one is making. How many times must it be stated explicitly that it's understandable when new or otherwise inexperienced players don't perform at an ABC standard? Before we launch into another discussion about people being mean, no - regardless of someone's reason for playing a certain way, harassment isn't the recommended course of action.

Cynfael : I consider asking for healers to dps systematically already being kind of elitist. I know, dps as healer is super easy, you should always be casting, mana is cheap, etc...
But some people aren't as good or involved... The latter being the hardest thing for you guys to accept I guess... casuals...
But I really tought I made it pretty clear that I am against any kind of elitism when it is out of context, e.g in DF.

1. You're entitled to that viewpoint, but this goes back to one of the main ideas of this thread: exactly what is so difficult about lobbing even an occasional attack while healing familiar content? Why is this extremely minimal expectation elitist? I very highly doubt that any significant percentage of the player base is so naturally "unskilled" that they can't do this; if they can clear the main story boss fights without being dead for the duration, they can definitely do this. What we're seeing are healers who purposefully do less because they have a narrow and selfish view of their role. These players are the real issue, not newbies.

2. Casual does not automatically = bad. You can be casual in the sense of playing only a few times a week and still play well. You also don't need to do Savage to perform well in daily content. I've watched players I assume to be casual healers, and if they're engaged during healing downtime, they tend to throw out an odd DoT or nuke rather than stand around. They presumably don't play enough to have memorized every bit of every fight or to optimize every GCD, but they clearly aren't being lazy.