Primals - A Discussion on Ethics & Philosophy (ARR & HW Spoilers)

[Theodric]

...and as has been pointed out throughout numerous threads on this particular sub-forum, a lot of these discussions ultimately come down to personal interpretations of very complicated and nuanced issues. Thordan did not lack in depth and his motivations aren't entirely selfish. Furthermore, the protagonists are hypocritical at many points in the story as they themselves are more than willing to rely on brute force brought forth as a result of divine blessing to achieve the goals that they deem worthy of pursuing, often with similar levels of sacrifices and bloodshed involved. You can argue that the ends justify the means but so, too, can that be done from the perspective of many of the game's antagonists. Especially when pretty much every major character - antagonist or protagonist - ends up playing right into the Ascian's plans at various points.

The Archbishop needed to be stopped due to Tempering and his very existence draining the aether around him...but I can't condemn him for being self righteous when that is literally the driving force behind the majority of the major protagonists recently. Lyse being a prime example...though that's a discussion point for another thread, I suppose.

[Cilia]

Ultimately, Thordan did not believe in the Ishgardian people - that they were strong enough to stand the truth, and so sought to strip them of their individuality and free will. That alone should be reason enough to go against him; freedom and self-determination are things definitely worth fighting for. Aymeric identifies his father's motivations as such prior to the Grand Melee.

... I believe we must right the wrongs of antiquity and move forward as a nation united. Needless to say, my father did not share this opinion. He did not believe the people strong enough to bring about their own deliverance, trusting only in himself. Tyranny seemed to him the only solution.

Tyranny is never a solution to a problem. It just makes things worse. (Of course, we ended up being the instrument of Ishgard's deliverance, but... we're citizens of Eorzea too. Why should we not fight for her people?)

It's not about history and traditions. We shouldn't allow someone who only believes in himself to go unchecked when his belief is that he has to tyrannize his country for its own good.

... and, reading between the lines, Thordan seems to care much more about building and maintaining his personal power than the people of Ishgard. He would have forced a lie onto them because he did not believe them strong enough to handle the truth; that doing so would give him even more absolute and eternal dominion over Ishgard is... unlikely to be a mere coincidence.

By my blessing shall all men be sanctified, and an endless era of peace begin. Vice and conflict shall cease to be.

... at the cost of individuality and free will? No thanks. (Vice is what defines our humanity and conflict, for better or worse, is a natural part of life.)

[Theodric]

Aymeric may have claimed to put his faith in his people but he only really succeeded thanks to leaning heavily on the Warrior of Light to solve many of Ishgard's problems. Which, in turn, simply means that the flavour of the divine power differs. The Archbishop may very well have been a bigger threat overall due to wanting to resort to absolute control but as far as I'm concerned that's balanced out to some degree by the Warrior of Light and his allies simply putting a great many people to the sword simply for differing loyalties and beliefs.

Ul'dah, too, is built on a pillar of lies thanks to the situation surrounding Sil'dah yet the truth is hidden. As if that wasn't enough, the Sultana's supposed death was also hidden from the general public all in the name of 'preventing disorder' which is not dissimilar to what the Archbishop sought to do. Granted, he took things further but there is very much as case of 'Do as I say, not as I do!' at play when it comes to the protagonists.

[Cilia]

The only "problems" of Ishgard's that we solved was nipping King Thordan in the bud and putting an end to Nidhogg. The rest was politicking done by Aymeric. We, too, are Eorzean citizens - should we not involve ourselves in Eorzean affairs? We do not simply put others down for differing loyalties and beliefs - we do so because they are a threat to the peace, freedom, and/or well-being of others (and, oftentimes, ourselves - fighting in self-defense is not wrong).

The people of Ishgard learned the truth. Despite resistance, with some convincing Aymeric was able to get them to leave behind their hatred and look to the future unburdened by it. That wasn't us.

Everyone's a hypocrite, protagonist and antagonist alike. (Gaius: "Might makes right!" *three fights and one magical nuke later* "... but my way is right, even though you're mightier...") Get over it.

[Lutefisk]

Calling shenanigans; that wasn't the Archbishop's motivation at all.

I've never undersood why people are so confused about Thordan's ”true motivations” when the man himself explains what exactly he was doing right when we meet him for the first time.

Those harbingers of chaos and strife offered us power, that we might continue our war against the dragons.
I have no intention of aiding their cause, of course, nor less of being their puppet.
Yet were I to refuse them outright, I should learn naught of their true objectives and remain powerless to stop them.
Thus have I hearkened to their words with interest, and paid lip service to their beliefs, biding my time and preparing for the inevitable conflict.

He knows what the Ascians are and what they do and took their offer to lure them into a trap.

Defeating the Dravanians with the aid of a primal was a plausible reason for them to teach him how to summon one so he could use it against them. If he actually managed to kill Nidhogg with it too then that's two birds with one stone. After Nidhogg's death he puts up a show about trying to keep a lid on the lie to make sure the Ascians think he's still on board of their plans and has some flimsy excuse to want some of that primal power.

and later tells us that he intends to "bless" all men in order to bring about an "endless era of peace" where "vice and conflict [have ceased] to be."

This is where my belief that Thordan did not have the Echo comes into play.

After he raises his staff and the lightshow starts Thordan the Archbishob is no more, there's only Thordan the Primal. And of course he's foaming at the mouth about peace and order because he's a primal that was summoned to put an end to one of those harbingers of chaos and strife; to kill Lahabrea.

[Alleo]

Folks need to stop trying to portray Thordan as a mwa ha ha moustache-twirling evil villain. He was a LOT more nuanced than that.

First off, Aymeric was never tortured, as far as I can remember.

He is nuanced (and I like him as an enemy) but he is far from being innocent and imo deserved his fate at the end.

Yes Aymeric was tortured. He went there in fine health but after we free him out of his prison he is hurt and has problems with standing straight. That imo does not happen from just sitting in prison. Yes he could have just killed his son but he might still have felt some sort of emotion towards him and who knows if he wouldnt had just tempered him after he was done with us. If he would have killed us and let Aymeric rot in prison there would have been no people left that could have opposed him thus he could have a free hand.

He might have told these kind of motivations to Aymeric but in the fight against us he made it quite clear that he wants to rule all and since he already tempered his faithful knights, he would achieve his reign with tempering too. That are not the actions of a good man. He also knew the truth yet kept on having the war go on, and turned primal even though we were already trying to achieve true peace. IMO its better to let the people know the truth than keeping them living a lie that would just end in so much sadness, rage and hate.

I
He knows what the Ascians are and what they do and took their offer to lure them into a trap.

Defeating the Dravanians with the aid of a primal was a plausible reason for them to teach him how to summon one so he could use it against them. If he actually managed to kill Nidhogg with it too then that's two birds with one stone. After Nidhogg's death he puts up a show about trying to keep a lid on the lie to make sure the Ascians think he's still on board of their plans and has some flimsy excuse to want some of that primal power.

If it was only about Ascians why not work truly together with the WoL? Instead after we take care of one Ascians and he took down the other one, he turns around and immediately challenge us to a fight to the death. Why do that if the only reason he took all the power, was to defeat the Ascians? Its just simply because we know the truth behind the war and this was not good for his plan which was declaring himself a god-king and make a reign of peace by using his power (and probably tempering) and letting all people live a life full of lies (and maybe even not free will). On top of that this might have meant the death of the whole dragons since they are a thorn in his eye even though not everyone was fighting against them. Such a fight would probably not have ended fast since the elder dragons are not that weak thus lots of death, consumed aether and maybe another calamity depending on the scale of such a battle.

We did not know how the people would react to the news and maybe they all would have been in denial and it could have ended in a different way but at least Aymeric would have done all he could and people would have their own choice if they believe it or not. Thankfully it turns out well, without the need of constant tyranny and countless deaths, the change of their government and maybe a way brighter future for the common people somewhere down the line.

Ysayle never wanted to conquer them all and did not want to force her will onto the whole people. She just wanted to reveal the truth and change the fate of not only the dragons but also of the people. She did it not in a good way (and a bit naive too) but she saw through her mistakes and tried to redeem herself at the end.

[LineageRazor]

In the case of a primal, the memories and emotions of the summoners are "given life" by the aether, which is why primals have personalities and memories, unlike a carbuncle.

Ah, but are Carbuncles truly without personality and memory? While memory is hard to judge, we've seen at least two cases of Carbuncles that seem to have their own will and personality: the one that ran away from Tataru during her brief stint as an Arcanist, and the one in Mor Dhona whose owner is constantly trying to find it. Maybe also the Diamond Carbuncle owned by the Anima quest NPC in Idyllshire. It really does seem as though Arcanists are bringing actual life-forms into existence, not just aetheric machines.

Primals do seem to be a very different sort of aetheric life form, but this may well be by design. It could be that it's entirely possible to summon a Primal-like being that does NOT guzzle Aether or Temper people (a giant Carbuncle, essentially) - but that Primals were specifically intended by the Ascians to do those things.

And you need to stop thinking there's something redeemable about Thordan. For most of the Big Bads, the writers have done quite a bit to show us that in their own minds, they genuinely believe they are right. The 2 exceptions to that are Zenos, who is arguable psychotic, and Thordan, who is clearly a megalomaniac. His conversation with Ayermic was less about the burden of leadership, and more about tripping him up and confusing him. He literally says he wants to become a god, and then refers to himself as a god-king. He then says that no matter where chaos is, he will excise it with his sword and install order. He's not a cartoon villian, but he's not nuanced either.

Trip Aymeric up and confuse him? Why would Thordan bother doing that - the guy is right there in front of him, and can do absolutely nothing to oppose him since Thordan can just lock him up (which he did) or kill him outright (which he didn't). The only way tripping up Aymeric makes sense, is if Aymeric still posed a threat - which, at this point, he did not.

As for insight, we do get insight into Thordan, via two conversations with the guy. In the first, in which we talk to him personally, he tells us that Ascians have approached him, that he intends to play along with them, and plans to ultimately betray them. He did exactly these things. In the second, during his conversation with Aymeric, he announces his intentions to continue suppressing the truth of Ishgard's guilt for the sake of Ishgard's people. He goes on to go to great extremes to do exactly that.

If he has deeper motivations than the ones he said aloud, they are never revealed in game - so if you're going to imagine such deeper motivations, that's entirely on you. The game does nothing to support those conclusions. Basically, we are being provided with evidence to Thordan's motivations (from his own mouth), and you are choosing to believe that he is lying, even though every word he spoke is supported by his actions in game. Cilia's guilty of this, too, suggesting that since Thordan decided to gain the power of a Primal in order to enforce the great lie, gaining that power must have been his true motivation. I choose, instead, to believe that Thordan was being earnest when he spoke of how difficult the burden of the truth was, and that choosing to bear that burden into eternity as an everlasting Primal was, to him, a tremendous act of self-sacrifice, not an opportunity for self-aggrandizement.

*Various people's quote's about how Thordan isn't justified.*

Please don't take my defense of the guy to at all indicate that I believe he was in the right or justified in what he did. Thordan absolutely DID need to be stopped. He was a tyrant through-and-through - a reluctant tyrant, but a tyrant nonetheless. He had no faith in the strength of his people, and his solution to keep them safe and happy was to remove their freedom, and the freedom of everyone else in the world, to boot. He was a threat not only to the future of Ishgard, but of the entire world. No, my beef is with the idea that tyranny was the end, not the means; the idea that he wanted the power for his own sake, rather than for the sake of the people of Ishgard.

[Mysterysword]

Ah, but are Carbuncles truly without personality and memory? While memory is hard to judge, we've seen at least two cases of Carbuncles that seem to have their own will and personality: the one that ran away from Tataru during her brief stint as an Arcanist, and the one in Mor Dhona whose owner is constantly trying to find it. Maybe also the Diamond Carbuncle owned by the Anima quest NPC in Idyllshire. It really does seem as though Arcanists are bringing actual life-forms into existence, not just aetheric machines.

The Sharlayans also extensively used magic to animate household objects and give them sentience, or some semblance of it, if Matoya's frogs and brooms are any indication. I'd actually love to see an entire society that runs on magical servant labour.

Anyway, all this shows that it is possible to create a sentient lifeform purely through magic. I have a headcanon that carbuncles are granted personalities based on the state of the gemstone used to summon/create them. A Topaz carby summoned from a polished, faceted topaz, for example, might be more refined than one summoned from a chunk of topaz freshly-dug out of the rock. They would still share the basic traits of all Topaz carbuncles, but beyond that it's up to the gemstone.

[CaesarCV]

Carbuncles are also aetherial constructs, but they are not the same as Primals. Many Aetherial constructs do appear to have at least some level of sentience. The creatures constructed by Omega seem to have a level of sentience, such as ho Alpha shows clear fear and emotion. Similarly, the carbuncles, while presumably bestial in their mental faculties, do have a will and personality of their own.The fairies of Nym seem to have even more self-determination, although they are mute and unable to speak. They can complete many acts that show clear self-determination, up to an including possessing other creatures. One of the key differences between Carbuncles and Primals is their capacity to absorb aether. Carbuncles only utilize the aether of their creator, and a relatively small amount of it too. If that aether is cut off (IE, they're desummoned, or their creator dies) they quite simply cease to exist. This is especially important to Eorzeans since it prevents the massive aetherial imbalances caused by primals or the exploitative magic of the Ampador and Mhchach. So while they are similar in that they are both beings constructed from aether, they have several key differences.

Primals, in contrast, have much more specific steps for creating/summoning them, with only the Ascians possessing the knowledge to do so. They have the ability to suck aether from their surroundings, which can allow them a much greater degree of permanence. Some of them even use tricks to last almost indefinitely, such as getting extra belief through tempering (almost all), or binding themselves to an object (Odin). They are clearly altered by the mental states of the people using them, and they even appear to create some sort of lifestream presence when they do so, although I wonder if that part's still true. After all they were proven to be nothing more than illusions by Hraesvelgr, who mentioned that they definitely are NOT the original souls in most cases.

As for the headcanon on the crystals, there is already confirmation that the type and purity of the stone used affects the final carbuncle, so it's really more of a pretty logical extrapolation than anything. Also I love it.

[Cilia]

Truly, the face of a reluctant tyrant burdened by purpose.

/sarcasm