Co-Op Dungeons (for DoW/DoM and DoL)

[RemVye]

I have voiced my opinion about it already. The fact remains there is demand for it even if it's not something you would like to do.

Oh don't get me wrong, I would still do it. I just think there are far far better things for them to invest time into. And, I thought the want/need was to give people who MAIN CLASSED DoL/H some content. I don't see that happening because as I explained:

/sh Looking for DoW/M with maxed DoL/H for <instance>

I would not say:

/sh Looking for DoL/H for <instance>

[RemVye]

90+% of people don't want DoL/H to fight or to be able to talk there way through a fright. People would readily accept content that incorperated other classes into making more in depths experiences

That is why you make multiple endings to a dungeon. Paths that require assistance or thinking. Battle content with no challenge last less than a month.

After the first group completes the "puzzle" how is it going to be hard for anyone else? As soon as you figure out what to do once, it's going to be zero challenge.

[Nakiamiie]

Oh don't get me wrong, I would still do it. I just think there are far far better things for them to invest time into. And, I thought the want/need was to give people who MAIN CLASSED DoL/H some content. I don't see that happening because as I explained:

/sh Looking for DoW/M with maxed DoL/H for <instance>

I would not say:

/sh Looking for DoL/H for <instance>

You won't shout, there will be a party search feature. Just have to include a feature to flag more than one of your classes.

[Nakiamiie]

After the first group completes the "puzzle" how is it going to be hard for anyone else? As soon as you figure out what to do once, it's going to be zero challenge.

Same for the regular dungeon. *cough* Iffrit (hyper) with the "safe" spots *cough*

[Manafont]

How about Indiana Jones? He's an Archeologist (Gatherer), not a fighter...he just happens to know how to use a whip and a gun.

so in FFXIV terms he equips a whip or a gun and becomes a different class and stays that class the whole movie. GOTCHA

[Manafont]

Same for the regular dungeon. *cough* Iffrit (hyper) with the "safe" spots *cough*

so why havent you beat it

[Jigg]

How about beyond the cave-in/overgrown roots/dangerous fish - whatever obstruction there is, the dungeon is randomly generated? Main content area would be static, while the obstructed passages would be dynamically built when the instance is loaded. This would give a lot more replayability to an instance.

[Wolfie]

Yoshida's blatant dismissal of this kind of possibility is a testimate to how little he cares about anything but Battle. He calls it too stressful but that what a challenge is. A hard dungeon will be stressful regardless of how it must be completed.

Stress is not at all related to difficulty and skill. You can have things that are stressful but don't require skill (like any type of grinding), and difficult things that are fun (like bosses/NMs/whatevers). The game needs actual difficulty and skill tests, not more gating and time wasting trying to find the right group, or carrying non-combat people through a dungeon, or wasting time between pulls and bosses because all your cooldowns were reset and you had to swap gear around.

Incorperating DoL/H would allow for a level of depth that is unheard of in MMOs today. The ability to make secondary passages or defensive positions inside of a dungeons would be the first real challenge implemented in this game. Yoshida is just blissfully ignorant of the possibility of puzzle being better than speed runs.

No, actually, Yoshida displayed a clarity that I've only seen matched by Trion and Blizzard. The reason every other MMO doesn't do this is because regardless of how you slice things, some type of player loses out on this kind of content. If it's a player that only plays combat classes, they won't be able to do certain parts of the content on their own, or has to wait for a gatherer/crafter; and vice versa. It also creates a REQUIREMENT that people play both types of classes, because those that don't are not as valuable to a group as someone that's both a crafter and a fighter.

By all means, if you have an idea of how to make content that caters perfectly to every style of player and still manages to be interesting or fun, let us hear it. Tanaka failed in that regard with the main storyline quests, and nobody else in the MMO world has managed to pull it off well enough for it to be a thing.

[Jigg]

so in FFXIV terms he equips a whip or a gun and becomes a different class and stays that class the whole movie. GOTCHA

Well no...he'd have to go back to gatherer at some point, or he'd be a terrible archeologist o.O

[Griss]

I totally understand where yoshida is coming from on this. The best allegory to doh/dol's in a dungeon i can think of would be the vip escort maps from Team fortress classic. Not exactly a totally fun experience all around (it really sucked being the civilian). But valve managed to put a really good spin on it and the Payload was born (my favorite tf2 game type).

Now what if instead of having some one as a ball and chain on craft or gathering class. Some one was elected to perform the same tasks via key item's and environmental interactions and mini games?

It would lead to the same exact moments and possibility's with in game play but with out having to have one or more people only being useful at hyper specific times during the encounter.

A game that pulled this off really well was Alien swarm. It's a class based third person isometric team shooter with puzzle elements. Let me tell you, it really motivates you to complete a hack or seal or breach a door when there is a horde of aliens coming for your goolies and knowing that succeeding quickly will probably save your team. Yes there is one specific class that does the puzzling but the important part is that's not its only role. When the engineer is not fiddling with their torch or playing around on the computer. They are right there with the rest of the team blasting away.

But i digress, this is all from the standpoint of someone being Locked to the class they enter on.