Why CNJ > WHM & THM > BLM does make sense: A canoical study.

[Wynn]

THM's abilities and spells are dark and gloomy. CNJ's abilities and spells are neutral (not dark and gloomy). That is why THM should be BLM and CNJ should be WHM. Out of both Jobs the one that fits the description of "dark and gloomy" better is BLM. WHM can keep it's neutral spells and it will be less in conflict with the Job than THM's spells are.

You can keep on insisting that BLM's aren't evil. It doesn't matter. WHM's are less likely to have access to dark and gloomy spells than BLM, thus BLM's role in this game is to be dark and gloomy.

My argument is clear and you aren't making it any less true by twisting it to suit whatever you want to say.

Your argument is anything but clear. You are using a warped sense of morality to paint these classes into neat little black and white packages. Your inferences are completely false and invalid.

[Tonkra]

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Regen_%28Ability%29

yes and does that skill goes along with pain of its caster? no it doesnt.. because its a real white mage skill.. white mage skills (except banish) isnt about hurting... or converting lifepoints into something

THM Regen: small heal amount + LP sacrifice of the caster
WHM Regen: just about Heal effect + reggen

The word is sacrifice, as in I am making a sacrifice of my life to heal yours. Sounds kind of martyr like, no?

sacrifice in sense of "sacrificing someones live" to receive an effekt.. doesnt sound very "holy" to me.. as i said.. its about sacrificing... life drain, mp drain (from a corpse)... the only thing is missing for the thaumaturg right now is that he can summon little minions up out of a corpse.

and thats the intention which i mostly got when i followed the main storyline and looked deeply into his skills.. it was more about weakening, poisoning enemys, draining their health etc... while as the conjurer (druid) was about nature, curing someones wounds etc.
unfortunatley.. i cant find that mission step on youtube, that i can show it to you what i mean.

Shadow is just the inverse of light. A duality if you will. Kind of like The Thal to it's Nald, if you get my meaning.

ah ok now thats logic. shadow spells, calling the darkness belongs to a holy white mage ;D

[Wynn]

...

You people are completely hopeless.

[Tonkra]

You people are completely hopeless.

well or you... you think SE does know more less about their classes than you?

interesting... so i see... life leeches... mp leeches from corpses do belong to a holy white mage caster role! respect (it reminds me more of necromancer classes)

[Betelgeuzah]

You are using a warped sense of morality to paint these classes into neat little black and white packages.

Still not understanding, I see.

The forces of nature are not evil, nor good. Someone with evil intentions (in fantasy) can use them to perform evil deeds, but the nature itself has no allegiance. Thus CNJ is neither good nor evil, it is completely neutral. You simply use the nature the way you want to. You even admitted this by saying that BLM is not evil. Nature-based offensive spells do not make it evil.

On the other hand, spells like Contagion, Blood Rite, Dark Seal- anything considered "Dark" is considered "evil" or "bad". I didn't make it this way, but that's how they are conceived. Dark is "evil", Light is "good". While the nature is neutral. There is nothing "warped" in these preconceptions. If you felt the opposite then that would be warped indeed.

You can insist that nature is considered evil in some weird fantasy world in your mind, but that is not how it is generally conceived. And that said WHM is less fitting for the evil role than BLM is. Case closed.

[Wynn]

Still not understanding, I see.

The forces of nature are not evil, nor good. Someone with evil intentions (in fantasy) can use them to perform evil deeds, but the nature itself has no allegiance. Thus CNJ is neither good nor evil, it is completely neutral. You simply use the nature the way you want to.

On the other hand, spells like Contagion, Blood Rite, Dark Seal- anything considered "Dark" is considered "evil" or "bad". I didn't make it this way, but that's how they are conceived. Dark is "evil", Light is "good". While the nature is neutral. There is nothing "warped" in these preconceptions. If you felt the opposite then that would be warped indeed.

You can insist that nature is considered evil in some weird fantasy world in your mind, but that is not how it is generally conceived.

I'm not insisting nature is evil. I'm insisting your attempt to make one evil over the other is false. Just as nature is not evil, neither is death inherently evil. It is part of nature, after all. But that's irrelevent anyway because THMs don't revere death. They revere Nald'thal, who is the keeper of the afterlife, like Osiris or any other number of ancient gods who were not considered evil and were worshiped in the hopes of making a comfortable stay in heaven (or insert name for afterlife here).

You're the one who doesn't understand.

[Endemerrin]

Honestly, I really fail to see why some people are getting into a fuss over things. We have zero information on the class changes coming in 1.20, outside of the knowledge that they will be very significant. Yoshi-P has said in recent days that we will be getting information on the class changes very seen (over the weekend, supposedly) - so people need to just be patient.

While I personally am skeptical on how they will pull things off, hopefully they'll just be shifting all the elemental spells to Thaumaturge, and giving Conjurer Dia/Diaga + Banish/Banishga + etc. I mean, we all know we can't exactly have a black mage without black magic. In previous installments, black magic is elemental magic. It'd be pretty brazen of them to claim to want to bring back "original roles" and go a completely different route with black mage by giving them solely dark magic.

[Betelgeuzah]

Just as nature is not evil, neither is death inherently evil.

Yet that's how humans conceive death, and not nature.

Scourge
Blood Rite
Dark Seal
Shadowfall
Shadowsear
Contagion

=Death


=Evil

=Black Mage and not White Mage

It's funny that now you have to resort to lore, but the facts are in your face. Those spells belong to BLM, not WHM. Whatever Op'rah THM's revere doesn't matter when they have abilities and spells that can be directly linked to death, and thus evil as people tend to do. Same goes for "Black".

[Wynn]

Honestly, I really fail to see why some people are getting into a fuss over things. We have zero information on the class changes coming in 1.20, outside of the knowledge that they will be very significant. Yoshi-P has said in recent days that we will be getting information on the class changes very seen (over the weekend, supposedly) - so people need to just be patient.

While I personally am skeptical on how they will pull things off, hopefully they'll just be shifting all the elemental spells to Thaumaturge, and giving Conjurer Dia/Diaga + Banish/Banishga + etc. I mean, we all know we can't exactly have a black mage without black magic. In previous installments, black magic is elemental magic. It'd be pretty brazen of them to claim to want to bring back "original roles" and go a completely different route with black mage by giving them solely dark magic.

You're right, about almost everything. Except that we just got a quote that said they are not changing the fundamentals, which could mean they aren't shifting any of the spells. If they do, great.

Yet that's how humans conceive death, and not nature.


=Death


=Evil

=Black Mage and not White Mage

It's funny that now you have to resort to lore, but the facts are in your face. Those spells belong to BLM, not WHM. Whatever Op'rah THM's revere doesn't matter when they have abilities and spells that can be directly linked to death, and thus evil as people tend to do. Same goes for "Black".

/sigh

Shadow is not directly linked to death. Blood is not directly linked to death. In fact, one could argue blood is life. Contagion is disease, a virus, also life. These are just inversions, the yin to the yang. Which IS what THM is actually about. Duality.

BLM has never ever been evil. In fact, the very first BLM was a warrior of light.

Your morality has no basis here. And the god THMs revere is completely relevant. It is the crux of everything.

Killing something with disease is no more evil than killing something by drowning them.

[Tonkra]

----edit----