Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?

[Daralii]

Hmm, I don't remember that being mentioned. There were a lot of non-Skull soldiers at the base, it was a pretty big tower, and there just aren't that many Skulls. Are we really certain that there were only Skulls in there?

Oh, and I thought of someone else who was surprised by the attack: The Alliance. Who, again, really oughtn't have been surprised, given previous Garlean atrocities.

Firing on their own like that was, to the Alliance's knowledge, unprecedented as far as I'm aware.

[SunAurel]

If Yotsuyu gets redeemed and not Fordola I will be so pissed.

Fordola was misguided by false promises of a freedom in the empire that raised her while Yotsuyu was cruel for cruelties sake

Fordola experienced how the garleans treated her. They called her names and denied her accomplishments so i guess a huge motivator for her was spite

In the end it comes down to what she and lyse see as more beneficial for ala mhigo- being an equal part of the empire or independent, but Fordola could see the error of her ways. In her mind, she tried to do what was best for her homeland

[Cilia]

@Cilia I apologise that I have nothing to contribute to this at present (I'd love to sink my teeth into an exhaustive case study on him at some point, especially in the context of Garlean culture, no pun intended), except: [slow clap]. Magnificent--thank you for writing this up.

Hey, thanks! I just noticed that a lot of people have put a lot of effort into explaining Yotsuyu and Fordola's personalities and motivations, while Zenos is largely ignored as nothing more than an immoral killer. While it's easy to write him off as nothing more than a psychopathic, tyrannical blood knight, those four words give us a window into the past that shaped him, and I think it's a shame to ignore that. Only by understanding Zenos can we begin to remedy the conditions that created him.

Anyway, back on point.

While there are no known or enforced rules of war on Hydaelyn, the Eorzean Alliance at least holds itself to some code of conduct.

Whatever "rules of war" can be said to exist, that whoreson has broken them all. This will not stand!

(Of course Zenos would break the "rules of war." He's a psychopath.)

The Centurion in Castrum Abania also shows no small amount of trepidation in issuing the order to fire on Specula Imperatoris, seemingly trying to make a moral stand before being threatened with Zenos' wrath. Furthermore, the Imperial soldier we helped out of the wreckage seemed rather outraged that his comrades fired at him to get the Alliance.

...It wasn't long ago I was trying to kill you and yours. I half expected you were about to slit my throat. To hells with this. I should be back home in Ilsabard, instead of taking fire from my so-called comrades. Put me in a gaol or wherever─I'm through with it. Do you hear me? I surrender!

This suggests that intentional friendly fire is not common or expected, even in the XIIth. This also proves that some Garleans were still alive when the shot was fired.

It is heavily implied that the Skulls, sans Fordola, were all killed in the shot and aftermath. Tragically, this means Fordola killed the few people who shared her ideal in service to it. Fordola does seem to believe that the other Skulls would have accepted dying in service to that ideal, but she had no real way of knowing - she sacrificed them without their consent. Regardless, if she knew they had turned traitor, she likely would have ordered the shot anyway. She "had to" in order to win Ala Mhigo's "freedom," and the other Skulls betraying that cause wouldn't change the outcome. (Zenos got his hooks in her good with the superficial charm endemic to psychopaths.)

I do believe Fordola can be redeemed, as she is rather troubled ordering the shot. Still, she first has to acknowledge and accept that what she did was wrong, then vow to set things right. Fight for an Ala Mhigo for everybody, not just an Ala Mhigo for those who support the Empire (which amounts to... pretty much just her at this point). Only then can Fordola begin to atone - and atonement is a path, not a destination.

[Quor]

Fordola's path

If, and this is a big if of course, she is able to see the error in her ways and begin to come around, who then would accept her? Definitely not the alliance or Ala Mhigo. She's done some unforgivable things, not the least of which is enforcing two decades of oppression on an entire people, however well-intentioned she may have been. She could probably get away with a hermit-like life, or live in exile, say Hingashi, or even Othard. Her skills would definitely be in demand, so life as a mercenary is a possibility, but she would likely have to watch over her shoulder more than most, and we don't know what any long-term effects of the artificial Resonance/Echo are, if any.

My money is on the Scions. It'd be easy to place her under Urianger's "care" in order to allow him to observe her and hopefully address any issues that come up with her condition, while in actuality giving her more or less the same free reign that the other Scions have, adjusted appropriately to the level of trust she has earned via her actions. I wonder if maybe the WoL, and to a lesser extent maybe Krile too, will become instrumental in helping Fordola adapt to and live with her enhanced condition. After all, even the WoL has had moments where the Echo was too much and it left us in a debilitated state somehow, and this is with a "natural" Echo. There's no telling what an artificial Echo can do.

Which then begs the question; how long was Zenos Resonant for? I highly doubt his power was recently acquired, as he's shown to be effortlessly defeating several Doman fighters following the recent insurgency that led Yugiri and her refugees to Eorzea. So he's had his artificial Echo for at least that long for sure, and likely longer. Did Zenos or Malus even think to take data on the long-term effects of Resonance? Is Fordola a ticking time bomb of insanity, with all the unpleasantness that entails?

[LineageRazor]

Ironically, while Fordola arguably has a better grade of character than Yotsuyu, I see the latter as much more likely to turn a new leaf. Fordola has a WHOLE lot of sunk-cost fallacy to overcome. She's done things that she, herself, finds reprehensible in the name of a greater good. If she were to give up on her goals now, to admit that they were wrong, would essentially mean that all those years of oppression and the murder of her closest friends and comrades were all for nothing. That's an awfully bitter pill to swallow, and the easier path is to just blame the ones who spoiled her plans. (Plus, as I noted earlier, she doesn't have reason yet to believe she was wrong; Zenos may have fallen and Ala Mhigo may be free for now, but the Garlean Empire is still a very scary force, and if they take Ala Mhigo again they won't be as soft on them as Zenos was.)

Yotsuyu, on the other hand, has basically gotten to the end of a decades-long temper tantrum. She doesn't attach any moral labels to the atrocities she committed; she did them because they made her feel good, and things like morality and justification had little part in it. The blind, unreasoning lashing out was, essentially, childish - and now that her childishness is no longer being indulged, she's going to have to grow up. However, while she may not have power over others anymore, it's interesting to note that for the first time in her life others (except, possibly, Gotetsu) have no power over her, either. She's no longer under the control of an abusive family or Garlean masters, and is free to choose her own path forward. Redemption won't be a part of Yotsuyu's future, because she's done nothing that she regrets, but at the same time she may well be intelligent enough to realize that attempting to continue her games without the support of her Garlean masters will not end well for her.

Neither woman is going to be welcome among her people, or has much chance of gaining their forgiveness. For Fordola, that's a chain - gaining acceptance, both from her Garlean peers and from her kinsmen, was a big motivator for her. It's not so for Yotsuyu; she gave up any pretense of attachment to the people of Doma when she betrayed them and will likely be happy never to see Doma or Domans ever again (at least, now that she can no longer torture them). Fordola has the weight of her sins weighing her down; Yotsuyu feels no guilt at all. Yotsuyu could, conceivably, take refuge in anonymity in another land and live out her days as a seemingly-normal woman. She accomplished the one goal she had - to bring misery to the Domans - and lived that life for many, many years. Fordola's goals remain unfulfilled, and while Ala Mhigo may be free, its freedom is a mockery of the freedom she'd envisioned for it.

Hey, thanks! I just noticed that a lot of people have put a lot of effort into explaining Yotsuyu and Fordola's personalities and motivations, while Zenos is largely ignored as nothing more than an immoral killer. While it's easy to write him off as nothing more than a psychopathic, tyrannical blood knight, those four words give us a window into the past that shaped him, and I think it's a shame to ignore that. Only by understanding Zenos can we begin to remedy the conditions that created him.

The problem with understanding Zenos is that the lore itself gives us so very little to work with. We know almost nothing of his upbringing. We can speculate about whether his disposition is due to nurture or nature, but it's nothing more than speculation. Perhaps future MSQs will share a bit of insight as to how he turned out the way he did - but I find it unlikely. He was pretty much built up to be a mad dog that needed to be put down - a plot device, not a person - and now that we have, his story is over.

[Alleo]

But at least with Fordola she regrets actions and she was not shown enjoying those things she did. So I can see her, unlike Yotsuyu, truly becoming some scion in the near future, but only after a believable change and not something really fast. Yotsuyu did everything because she felt imo morally right to do so. She believed that it was the fault of all the Domans thus her hurting/killing them was right. At least thats how I kinda see it because I feel that its difficult to live without any kind of moral labels.

Just the point that she enjoyed doing those things to innocent people makes her not redeemable in my eyes and who would really forgive her? Hien, after knowing her story, still cut her down and left her to die and the rest of doma will probably want her death. If she is not redeemable then there remains the question of why someone like her should even be alive. It may sound harsh but there are no known therapist in this world and normally such a deep trauma will not just be gone after a couple of people showing her kindness (and why would they even show her that), so what place does she still have in the story? Thats something I will remain skeptic because I really have the feeling that they just kept her alive to make a redemption arc and either let her go at the end or let her sacrifice herself. Also in the view of the alliance and Hien, letting her be alive could be dangerous too. How will they ever know if she truly means it and is just not simply playing along to get to her end? I would not take that risk for a woman that killed countless of innocent people (and enjoyed it on top of that). But thats just my view on this and I believe that SE sees this a bit different. x)

[Lutefisk]

so what place does [Yotsuyu] still have in the story? Thats something I will remain skeptic because I really have the feeling that they just kept her alive to make a redemption arc and either let her go at the end or let her sacrifice herself.

The way I see it, Yotsuyu's fate is going to be played for contrast with Fordola's. We know that Fordola is going to be put on a trial and perhaps made to answer for what she did but there's no indication that this is going to happen to Yotsuyu. At the end of 4.0 no one save the audience is even aware that she and Gosetsu made it out of Doma Castle alive. For all we know some ship bound for Thavnair will pick them up and the moment it hits port Yotsuyu will disappear from the radar for a good long while.

Until the Warrior of Light makes their way to Radz-at-Han and runs into a woman who looks suspiciously similar to a certain former viceroy.

[Theodric]

I feel like it's unfair to brush Yotsuyu off as 'childish' and as simply throwing a 'temper tantrum'. Given that she was physically and sexually abused for years - seemingly from an early age at that - things are quite a bit more complicated in regards to her behaviour, thinking and actions. That doesn't excuse what she did but at the same she is a consequence of the unpleasant aspects of Doman society. Hien even acknowledged as much and her survival means that we're unlikely to hear the end of that plot point either.

EDIT:

...and why is my avatar now a miqo'te? Is it showing as that for anybody else? I guess it has something to do with my transfer from Balmung to Cerberus. Oh well!

[Cilia]

[H]ow long was Zenos Resonant for? I highly doubt his power was recently acquired, as he's shown to be effortlessly defeating several Doman fighters following the recent insurgency that led Yugiri and her refugees to Eorzea. So he's had his artificial Echo for at least that long for sure, and likely longer. Did Zenos or Malus even think to take data on the long-term effects of Resonance? Is Fordola a ticking time bomb of insanity, with all the unpleasantness that entails?

It's unknown how long Zenos possessed Resonance. This was discussed elsewhere, but the conclusion that was reached is that his magic use is not the same thing as Resonance, and Zenos was using (well-disguised) magic back in Rhalgr's Reach. On the other hand, he is not known to have possessed Resonance prior to our final bout in Ala Mhigo; his targeted capture of Krile suggests he needed her to carry out the Resonant experiments, or at least to grant others Resonance.

Given Resonance is a novel thing, long-term side effects (if any) are unknown. (Still no word on my pet theory that Inferno was a failed Resonant. C'mon Ferne!)

The problem with understanding Zenos is that the lore itself gives us so very little to work with. We know almost nothing of his upbringing. We can speculate about whether his disposition is due to nurture or nature, but it's nothing more than speculation. Perhaps future MSQs will share a bit of insight as to how he turned out the way he did - but I find it unlikely. He was pretty much built up to be a mad dog that needed to be put down - a plot device, not a person - and now that we have, his story is over.

I know this is true, but both Fordola and Yotsuyu were products of their environment. Make no mistake, I'm not saying that Zenos wasn't a wild dog of war (or "rabid animal" as Lyse put it) that needed to be caged or put down for the good of... well, everyone, but I do think there's more to him than that. Violence was almost certainly in his nature, but that doesn't necessarily account for his psychopathy.

Simply stated, if Yotsuyu could be said to be the embodiment of Doma's sins, then I do believe Zenos could be said to be the embodiment of Garlemald's sins.

[SunAurel]

I just realized that in Fordolas mind, the reaction of the resistance have doomed Ala Mhigo. I mean we know the empire will retaliate. Fordola knew of the forces the empire has and what they are capable of and if the garleans deploy 2 legions to re-conquer ala mhigo, the punishment will be severe and the alliances part in it is also a danger to their lands as well.

I hope that gets touched upon that for her, Lyse doomed her homeland and all the people in it to a painful death (we know it won t happen bc plot and WoL ofc) and you can argue that she thought she acted in Ala Mhigos best interest.

They might have re-conquered ala mhigo but what price will they have to pay to keep it?

I hope the game adresses the aftermath of a nation that was a Province for decades and has to deal with real consequences for \\\\killing the crown prince\\\\' bc that is someting the garlean empire has to punish in full force or they demonstrate that they are pushovers