Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?

[LineageRazor]

Who in either army should be surprised at Garlemald toppling a tower to deny the enemy a strategic location and delay their advance at the cost of sacrificing a unit or two?

Normally I would agree with this, and I WOULD make the argument that the whole idea of a "war crime" in the setting of FFXIV is nonsense. The idea of war crimes in real life are a very recent invention. War crimes prior to that (and, very likely, also in the setting of FFXIV) are whatever the winning side decides war crimes are, no more, no less. The ridiculous penalties levied against Germany and its allies after WWI are a prime example of this. (Of course, even in real life there isn't universal agreement on what constitutes a war crime - only the folks who agree to obey the Geneva convention, and folks who are afraid to defy the folks who agree to obey the Geneva convention.)

However, that said, you ask who should be surprised, but the game itself shows us very clearly who is surprised: the Garleans manning the cannon, whom Fordola ordered to fire. It honestly didn't make much sense to me; it's well-known that Garleans consider their conscripts to be extremely expendable, and the idea that they would hesitate to expend them if it were to bring them a strategic advantage is absurd. There was no good reason for the cannoneers to be surprised at the command, and as near as I can tell the scene was shoehorned in simply to make Fordola's decision all the more difficult; to lend it a gravitas that it simply should not have had. The game made it clear that Fordola had crossed the line - but there was no good reason for that line to exist in the first place, given the kind of atrocities Garleans were already known for.

[Draginhikari]

Just to stir the pot...

I see a lot of posts that reference modern rules of engagement, modern military ethics, modern standards of what is acceptable force in a combat theater. Such standards were born of a war whose veterans are still alive... when nations would incinerate cities from the air in hopes that the loss civilian life might put a dent in morale and the main argument against chemical weapons was "the west will retaliate (so use them on everyone else)". The concept of a "war crime" is, barring a few sporadic examples against specific individuals, about as old as the twentieth century.

To be fair people view things through that lens because for most people it's the only lens they can use to gauge moral actions with. Frankly it's the whole point of having a moral code to gauge how a specific action or moral matches up with what we think is right or wrong. So the fact that people cannot disconnect their own morality system from the game world doesn't really surprise me. Whether it's an actual problem or not is a different discussion.

[SendohJin]

Definitely. But this the Empire at large has waltzed through genocide, chemical warfare, human experimentation, and trying to drop the moon on their enemies. Who in either army should be surprised at Garlemald toppling a tower to deny the enemy a strategic location and delay their advance at the cost of sacrificing a unit or two? What legionnaire (especially of the XIIth) has any reason to expect that they would be safe from being sacrificed in battle?

The American government have condoned slavery, used nuclear weapons, used chemical weapons, tortured innocent people with no due process. Yet people still buy in.

Who knows how much of that information gets back to the average enlisted Garlean and in what form? The average person is very easily convinced to look the other way or simply accept the action as absolutely necessary.

People are always surprised when it happens to them.

[Alleo]

What I am saying is that I don't see why she doesn't deserve redemption.

Criminals are sentenced to jail, not just to punish them, but also to reform them. The two objectives go hand in hand.

But first, there must be mercy. If Yotsuyu's punishment is tyrannically harsh, then it'll only serve to harden her already warped view of society's inherent cruelty.

Well it probably comes down to how far you see her past being a reason for her to deserve redemption or not. If someone is more of the believe that she is not fully to blame for her actions thanks to her past, they might not want her to be punished to harshly but if you see her still fully responsible for it, why should she be redeemed?

I see her as judge able for her actions. Her past does explain her hatred but everyone has a choice and torturing and killing innocent people and enjoying it too is way too much to forgive..I mean where to we truly stop wanting a redemption for people? Do dictators deserve redemption too? Does someone have to kill a certain amount of people in cold blood before they are beyond it? In the end she was leading Doma, making the people suffer and die under her rule and she even enjoyed it. I just see no reason why the alliance or even Doma should let her live.

In the end, its quite often pointed out that even though the morality is quite similar to our world they still differ too and thus I am quite sure that normally people would receive the death penalty for such acts. And even in peace and harmony, death is sometimes a necessary punishment.

Who in either army should be surprised at Garlemald toppling a tower to deny the enemy a strategic location and delay their advance at the cost of sacrificing a unit or two? What legionnaire (especially of the XIIth) has any reason to expect that they would be safe from being sacrificed in battle?

The biggest question is: Whats in the pot?...°L°

Well yes it is kinda surprising that a Garlean soldier would be shocked that such an order was given but we dont even know how far the common people and soldiers even know about all the horrible things that were done in the wars. Garlemalds rulers could have simply said that the moon falling was not accepted in their view (which would be quite the lie) and that it was Nael and her soldiers that did it. Also the poison they experimented on were only used on war prisoners and not their own people (as far as I can remember). So maybe in the end they are fine if the enemy is hit will all the horrible stuff, but this time it would be them too that would take a hit.

Still the Eorzean alliance was truly horrified by the poison and by them shooting their own people so maybe they have a higher moral standard? At least we know of no such recent attacks from their side.

[Anonymoose]

the game itself shows us very clearly who is surprised: the Garleans manning the cannon
<...> It honestly didn't make much sense to me;

Are we taking into account that the tower fired upon was defended exclusively by Skulls?

Raubahn refers to the XIIth on the ground as the "stragglers" from the initial assault. Both sides (Zenos, Fordola, Pipin, Conrad, Lyse) give a sit-rep that mentions only the Skulls being encountered in the main tower, and that Conrad was trying to convince them to surrender (and succeeding).

Imperial Centurion
Commander, if I may! Our people─your people are still in there!

If I'm reading it right, the Centurion is shocked that she would fire on them, sure that only a madman would even ask her to knowing that reinforcements were already scrambled. She says he's welcome to advise Zenos otherwise, but they both know that they'd just join the dead.

Prior to this, Fordola claimed that strength was the Ala Mhigans' key to freedom. If Ala Mhigo could fit the mold and do their part, they could stand proud and free(ish) as part of the Empire. She claimed her biggest fear was dying before she'd won the battles required to prove Ala Mhigo's strength, determination, and loyalty. (Echoes of Gaius.) Just before this scene, Fordola requested to rejoin the Skulls, but Zenos had planned everything in advance and knew she wouldn't make it on time. Instead he tells her he has a duty to entrust to her.

Fordola
Wars are won on the backs of the dead. Theirs and ours. There is no truth but this.
We must remain firm and resolute, and always, always do our duty. Now, give the order!

If I'm reading it right, she thinks of the Skulls as Urianger thought of Minfilia: if they had the choice, they'd still make the sacrifice. Zenos, meanwhile, knew that sending reinforcements would waste actual XIIth Legion resources. Remember, he'd engineered the rooftop battle with the Warrior of Light; he was pulling behind Castrum Abania regardless. Instead, he used Baelsar's leftovers to lure the Alliance into a slaughter that he knew would further provoke the Warrior of Light to join The Hunt.

Zenos just delighted in making Ala Mhigans kill each other, and in making Fordola pull a trigger disguised as the fulfillment of Gaius's promises.

[TinyRedLeaf]

I see a lot of posts that reference modern rules of engagement, modern military ethics, modern standards of what is acceptable force in a combat theater.

Well... if we want to be truly pedantic, there a lot of concepts in the fictional world of Eorzea that are arguably anachronistic to its apparently mediaeval setting, starting for example with the concept of "economy". The idea of an "economy" is actually quite modern, and didn't gain currency until well into the 19th century. Before that, commerce was understood in mercantilist, zero-sum, terms. "Trade", insofar as pre-modern Europeans understood it, was structured on unequal, monopolistic terms between their home countries and the colonies.

...and yet we have Ala Mhigans in the game thinking along anachronistically contemporary lines, instinctively knowing that trade will be necessary to rebuild their newly liberated nation. That's.... not quite how mediaeval kingdoms actually behaved in real-world history (they thought more along the lines of plunder and sorched-earth tactics).

What I'm basically saying, in a long-winded way, is that you're preaching to the choir as far I'm concerned. I know very well that I was taking creative licence in likening Fordola's actions to a modern "war crime". But the story liberally mixes modern concepts with an ostensibly pre-modern setting, quite likely because it makes the story more relatable to a greater number of people.

So, if using the analogy of "war crimes" helps people to better understand the essence of the debate, then I'm all for it. That's even before we consider how Eorzea essentially functions like a modern society in a faux "Ye Olde World" setting (linkpearl-telephones; modern kettles; instant teleportation; bathrooms with showers; bikini swimsuits!; etc, etc; need I list more? ), so who's to say that Eorzean morality isn't broadly comparable with ours?

As for the point about compassion and mercy, I see that I've not managed to quite get my point across, and I'm already exhausted from a long day of toiling through multiple news copy. So, I'll take it up another day.

The gist of it though is that we need to ask why someone like Yotsuyu survived, and consider her possible function in the larger story of Eorzea. This lies at the heart of why I strongly believe her redemption arc, if she gets one, will be tied to the larger story of breaking the cycle of hate that has trapped the Source and its shards for eons now. More on this later, if I can manage it.

[Jyera]

@Cilia I apologise that I have nothing to contribute to this at present (I'd love to sink my teeth into an exhaustive case study on him at some point, especially in the context of Garlean culture, no pun intended), except: [slow clap]. Magnificent--thank you for writing this up.

[CaesarCV]

One thing that I've noticed several times in this thread is the idea that the Skulls might have been alright with or agreed to the sacrifice. I personally do not believe this to be true. If they were willing to be sacrificed to the cause, at least on this very literal level, then things would have gone very differently. Namely, the fact that they were quite clearly not fanatical enough to throw their lives away for their cause. If they were fanatical, it would probably have taken a bit more than Kemp talking to them for them to surrender. They would have been more inclined to fight to the death, like Rhitayn, various Temple Knights, and the VII legion had previously in the story. I'm not necessarily saying that Fordola doesn't have any positive motivations regarding her decision, but I think it's worthy to think about the fact that her subordinate Skulls were definitely NOT willing to be sacrificed.

[LineageRazor]

Are we taking into account that the tower fired upon was defended exclusively by Skulls?

Hmm, I don't remember that being mentioned. There were a lot of non-Skull soldiers at the base, it was a pretty big tower, and there just aren't that many Skulls. Are we really certain that there were only Skulls in there?

Oh, and I thought of someone else who was surprised by the attack: The Alliance. Who, again, really oughtn't have been surprised, given previous Garlean atrocities.

One thing that I've noticed several times in this thread is the idea that the Skulls might have been alright with or agreed to the sacrifice. I personally do not believe this to be true. If they were willing to be sacrificed to the cause, at least on this very literal level, then things would have gone very differently. Namely, the fact that they were quite clearly not fanatical enough to throw their lives away for their cause. If they were fanatical, it would probably have taken a bit more than Kemp talking to them for them to surrender. They would have been more inclined to fight to the death, like Rhitayn, various Temple Knights, and the VII legion had previously in the story. I'm not necessarily saying that Fordola doesn't have any positive motivations regarding her decision, but I think it's worthy to think about the fact that her subordinate Skulls were definitely NOT willing to be sacrificed.

They may not have been - but Fordola clearly thought they were, and said as much when we confronted her. I've little doubt that she believed their convictions were on par with her own, and that she believed she herself had the convictions to sacrifice her own life if it would have advanced her cause.

It's possible that Fordola misjudged the devotion of her Skulls (after all, she was unaware that one of her Skulls was, in fact, a deep cover agent, as was revealed in some of the Peaks sidequests). However, entertaining thoughts of surrender does not necessarily mean that they weren't devoted to the cause. Dying pointlessly does nothing to advance the cause, after all, and a prisoner of war lives to perhaps fight again another day. The Skulls were unaware that they were being set up as bait to lure the Alliance into the line of fire - but it's entirely possible that if they HAD known, they might have approved.

[Anonymoose]

Are we really certain that there were only Skulls in there?

Relatively. As I said, Raubahn hand-waves the soldiers at the bottom by calling them the garrison's "stragglers" and it's universally "the Skulls" mentioned with regard to the main tower.

Aulus
I am informed that Ala Ghiri was recently occupied by the Resistance, and that an attack on Specula Imperatoris is considered imminent. This could provide an ideal opportunity to test her performance in the field.

Zenos yae Galvus
Your...Skulls, was it? They have joined the garrison at the watchtower?

Fordola
...Yes, my lord. By your leave, I would rendezvous with them and lead a counterattack against the insurgents.

Zenos yae Galvus
No. Even were you to leave now, you would not arrive in time.

Raubahn
Our work here is all but done. What of Conrad and his men?

Pipin
They are for the main tower. The Skulls have offered fierce resistance thus far, but Conrad seems to believe he can convince them to lay down their arms...

Raubahn
Then we will tend to the stragglers down below. With me!

Alphinaud
It...it was all so sudden. Conrad had just convinced the last few Skulls to surrender, when...when we heard the bang, and...and everything started to shake...

Fordola
Aye, I gave the order to fire.

Lyse
It was over! The Skulls had surrendered! No one else had to die! And you killed them! Your own people! Your own comrades!

Fordola
You're right. I killed them. Ansfrid, Hrudolf, Emelin, all the rest─trained and fought with every last one of them. Good soldiers to a man. I gave the order that led to their deaths...and I knew exactly what I was doing.

Lyse
But why!? Why would you do that!?

Fordola
They died so that all Ala Mhigans could live free. That was all we ever wanted. We made a promise that we would do whatever it took so that one day...one day the imperials would learn to accept us. But everything comes at a price. And if you haven't got the means to pay, then you pay with blood. Service guarantees citizenship, but citizenship guarantees naught. It's not enough to do your part, oh no. You have to run faster, fight harder, kill more and more and more─and only then will you be equal. That's just how it is out here in the provinces. You buy your freedom with blood─there is no other way!

Lyse
Shut up! Shut your mouth! You don't get to talk about freedom! You killed your own! They trusted you and you killed them! Murderer! Butcher! Traitor!