Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?

[SendohJin]

Would Fordola know that the Alliance/Resistance do not actually torture/execute any prisoners-of-war they get? I mean, the people of Ala Ghiri didn't, hence the whole mess with Baut.

Probably not, she would more than likely assume they do because her own side does it?

The Baut stuff was propaganda to scare regular people. Is she high enough in the chain to know what does or doesn't happen? They can't have actual evidence that the Alliance/Resistance tortures anyone.

It would not be a simple decision for sure, but it shouldn't be easier to fire on her own troops.

Ultimately if this is her defense, that common Isari villager was more willing to put himself in harm's way than she was.

You need to be brave to stand up to a tyrant. If she isn't than so be it but she certainly comes across as someone that's supposed to be willing to do whatever it takes.

[LineageRazor]

Criminals are sentenced to jail, not just to punish them, but also to reform them. The two objectives go hand in hand.

This is most certainly not always the case. Depending on the circumstance, prisons are a way to separate a wrongdoer (or, in some corrupt cases, someone inconvenient to those in power) from society, without any intention of rehabilitation. Heck, even in the modern United States there are cases of life sentencing where it is clear that in individual is meant to rot in prison until they die.

On the other hand, given Yotsuyu's treatment of the Domans, lifetime imprisonment might BE a mercy compared to what those she ruled might actually desire for her. While we do not have an explicit laundry list of her crimes, we were told in-game that the cruelty we witness at Isara was small potatoes compared to her actions elsewhere. Breaking the cycle of hate in this case might have nothing to do with providing Yotsuyu with the means to redeem herself (an opportunity that would likely be wasted anyway), and everything to do with NOT punishing her to the degree the Doman people would like.

The most important parting point that Lyse reflected on, in the concluding moments of Stormblood, is that monsters like Zenos and Fordola are made, not born. It was not just an observation of fact, but also a warning to all who follow, that good people can become monsters if they're forced by circumstances.

Fordola as a victim of circumstance, I can buy - but Zenos? What circumstance forced him to become a monster? As near as we can tell, as high-ranking Garlean nobility the guy had pretty much any avenue open to him, but he chose the path of a monster, and did so out of boredom. I guess one could argue that he was "forced" by way of genetics and temperament - but if those are excuses, are any of us culpable for anything we do?

[Theodric]

Zenos was deliberately written to be horrific in an attempt to avoid having people sympathise with him. Given that he abused his own people as often as his enemies I cannot say I sympathise with him in any way and I'm probably one of the biggest Garlean enthusiasts around. I did enjoy him as a character though for that to continue to be the case that is largely dependent on whether or not the protagonists acknowledge that Zenos wasn't advancing Garlemald's cause in any meaningful way and was, in fact, detrimental to it whilst openly denouncing his loyalties to Garlemald shortly before his defeat.

Aside from his father stating that he was a monster we also know that the Emperor did not look upon Aulus kindly, either. That's the man responsible for Zenos' enhancements - so the angle of Zenos being forced to endure experimentation is unlikely as all signs point to him embracing such things willingly.

[Quor]

I think Yotsuyu's "redemption" will be more of hermit-like isolation if anything. It'll involve Gosetsu in some way, with his solid, reliable, father-like approach giving her the stability - and evidence that not all Domans are bad - that she needs. She'll probably fall back to her old ways somehow, for a brief period, hurting Gosetsu in the process (but probably only an emotional hurt, not physical) and this will be the moment she stops and reflects on what she has done.

Then I could see her voluntarily choosing to go elsewhere somehow, either as an actual hermit, or in the cultural sense where maybe she opts instead to move to Eorzea, maybe as a part of the Scions, maybe as just a common woman in a new part of the world. I highly doubt the Domans will forgive her, even if Hien himself did as much, simply because it would take a pretty herculean effort on her part to undo the past damage she caused. It's still a possibility, but it feels like nothing short of a Papalymo-esque self sacrifice would be enough to absolve her of her actions.

One key difference between Yotsuyu and Fordola that I see is that the former was honest with herself and everyone she interacted with. It was widely known that Yotsuyu was cruel and wanted the Doman people to suffer. She made no claim to be doing this for "her people" or any other high-minded ideal. She wanted revenge, and she had the power to enact it, so she did. What this difference means, if it means anything at all, I don't know. But I'm 100% certain that Gosetsu will be the main impetus and gateway to Yotsuyu's eventual healing.

And possibly set the stage for a re-breaking, depending on how the story goes.

[Daralii]

Zenos was deliberately written to be horrific in an attempt to avoid having people sympathise with him. Given that he abused his own people as often as his enemies I cannot say I sympathise with him in any way and I'm probably one of the biggest Garlean enthusiasts around. I did enjoy him as a character though for that to continue to be the case that is largely dependent on whether or not the protagonists acknowledge that Zenos wasn't advancing Garlemald's cause in any meaningful way and was, in fact, detrimental to it whilst openly denouncing his loyalties to Garlemald shortly before his defeat.

Aside from his father stating that he was a monster we also know that the Emperor did not look upon Aulus kindly, either. That's the man responsible for Zenos' enhancements - so the angle of Zenos being forced to endure experimentation is unlikely as all signs point to him embracing such things willingly.

But that was immediately preceded by Lyse saying that Zenos was made into a monster, not born as one. Simply because of the juxtaposition, I have to think something caused that transformation. I'm half expecting that to be an Echo flashback later on.

[Cilia]

The key to Zenos is a very simple psychological principle: nature vs. nurture. Are people limited by fate - is a psychopath the way they are because it's in their nature and they are therefore destined to become one? Or are they shaped by their environment into what they are - and do people have the ability to influence what they become?

It's the wrong question. The question isn't which is right, the question is how did a person's nature mix with how they were nurtured to produce what they are?

Case of Zenos
Zenos is clearly a psychopath. He cares nothing for the lives of others, regularly cutting down his own soldiers, ordering them blasted with artillery fire to win a battle, and so on. His main interest in Fordola and Yotsuyu is as tools, and when they prove defective he threatens their lives. He only sees the Warrior of Light as a stress toy the first couple times we clash; everyone else bores him and he flat-out tells Lyse if she doesn't impress him he'll kill her. Zenos endorses Aulus' research as a means to greater power, and implicitly endorses all of the horrible experiments mal Asina carried out. In the end he denounces the Imperial ideal of conquering the world to suppress primals as cowardice, and spits in the face of those ideals by merging with Shinryu. (This is on top of the typical Garlean "everyone else is a bunch of savages" mentality.)

The way to filter out what he was nurtured into being is by looking at his shadow, the Warrior of Light. Zenos, simply put, is what the Warrior of Light could become if they let their battle lust override everything else. Thankfully this is not the case - the Warrior of Light has been shown to care for numerous other characters at various points in the story - but without positive influences like the Scions, the GC leaders, Haurchefant, eventually Ysayle and Estinien, and so on, they could have easily turned out like Zenos: a psychopathic blood knight who only cares about the thrill of combat, and follows orders only so far as they get them what they want. (To what extent the Warrior of Light actually is like Zenos is open for interpretation; there is a whole thread devoted to it, but suffice to say the Warrior of Light has not been portrayed as psychopathically as Zenos.)

This is all underscored by Zenos' final line:

Farewell, my first friend. My enemy.

Zenos grew up with no positive influences in his life. He didn't have the close friends we do, something to go back to at the end of the fight. He lived for the fight because it was all he had. It wasn't just what gave his life meaning, violence was his life - little wonder, then, that he practically worshiped it. At heart we are the same - both the Warrior of Light and Zenos live to do battle - but while Zenos claims to be a warrior (i.e. he conquers and attacks, he preys on the weak), the Warrior of Light (pun not intended) is a soldier - they defend and protect the innocent, usually from warriors. This is a bit muddied in the aggressive Stormblood war for Doman and Ala Mhigan independence, but don't forget that Zenos' ruthless abuse and exploitation of those peoples would have continued unabated had we done nothing.

In better circumstances, Zenos could have grown up to be the Vayne so many people desperately wished him to be, or perhaps even better, as a noble soldier of Garlemald and a worthy (if not superior) successor to Varis. A man who enjoyed a good fight and had no issue fighting for his homeland, but nonetheless knew when to put that aside and do what was best for everyone - just like the Warrior of Light. (We do work with Regula van Hydrus to try and stop Zurvan from awakening, and are shown to treat defeated and captured Imperial soldiers with dignity and respect. The Ala Mhigan Resistance is its own can of worms and not relevant to this.)

Instead he seems to have been neglected and taught that power is the only thing that matters in the world. That he would grow up to be a psychopathic tyrant, then, is little wonder.

Who, then, is to blame? Varis himself, obviously. Imperial philosophy. Warrior culture, the end result of the "might makes right" philosophy, so on and so forth.

Zenos represents how far the Warrior of Light could fall if they let their battle lust overcome them. Conversely, the Warrior of Light represents the best Zenos could have been had he been given positive influences and a meaning in life beyond conquest and violence.

Just think about that for a bit.

TL;DR
-Though his nature is an equal factor, the Empire made Zenos what he was. Consider that.

[RBlackshield]

As good as it is that everyone is analyzing the motivation of the "black hats" from this expansion, the thing you have to keep in mind is that knowing why someone did something does not mean that they deserve forgiveness. If a man steals a loaf of bread because he is starving, he deserves help and forgiveness.

Yotsuya, who decided to take her revenge on an entire country of people because they didn't help her, the help and forgiveness are not warranted. Yotsuya had no way of knowing if any of the Domans who she thought should have helped her had the ability to do so. Nor was every Doman aware of her situation. Regret the tragedy of a culture that allowed her abuse, but do not forgive her just because her life was hard.

Fordola was guilty of war crimes that are punishable by death to this day. She considered herself Garlean and fought for her countries military which she should not be condemned for. However, it's how she used her power that makes her deserving of death.

[YianKutku]

But that was immediately preceded by Lyse saying that Zenos was made into a monster, not born as one. Simply because of the juxtaposition, I have to think something caused that transformation. I'm half expecting that to be an Echo flashback later on.

When I saw that bit of dialogue, I was actually wondering if it was intended to be a reference to Confucianism via Mencius: that people were born inherently good (or at least not bad), but required positive influences and instructions in order to stay good. (Yes, I'm simplifying immensely.)

There are probably better examples in Western philosophy; I've noticed they tend to be more rigorous in their reasoning.

[Anonymoose]

Just to stir the pot...

I see a lot of posts that reference modern rules of engagement, modern military ethics, modern standards of what is acceptable force in a combat theater. Such standards were born of a war whose veterans are still alive... when nations would incinerate cities from the air in hopes that the loss civilian life might put a dent in morale and the main argument against chemical weapons was "the west will retaliate (so use them on everyone else)". The concept of a "war crime" is, barring a few sporadic examples against specific individuals, about as old as the twentieth century.

Can Magic Greece even see Magitek Persia through the lens of violations of humanitarian law? Atrocious? Absolutely. Above the dignity of certain Legati? Definitely. But this the Empire at large has waltzed through genocide, chemical warfare, human experimentation, and trying to drop the moon on their enemies. Who in either army should be surprised at Garlemald toppling a tower to deny the enemy a strategic location and delay their advance at the cost of sacrificing a unit or two? What legionnaire (especially of the XIIth) has any reason to expect that they would be safe from being sacrificed in battle?

Maybe the Sharlayan Conventions will give Hydaelyn the luxury of the same moral compass we enjoy.

[Quor]

"Modern" RoE in war

This is a point I've brought up a time or two before; all's fair in love and war. Prior to the advent of the Geneva convention, the rule of war was that there were no rules. If the enemy used a tool or tactic that was effective, you adapted that tool or tactic for yourself and then used it back on them harder and more effectively than they used it on you. When it comes down to survival, nature dictates that you do what you have to do. And if an enemy comes at you to annihilate you? You fight back like you are trying to annihilate them in return. Anything less just invites further aggression from any already hostile enemy.