Question on DF expectations

[JunseiKei]

What do you think is acceptable?

It largely depends on me and what my own constraints are.

For example, is getting a super-fast speed run the measure of a "good run"? If a run takes 10-15 minutes longer to work with party members who are making a serious effort yet make some mistakes and learn, is that a "bad run"? Do you have criteria for a good run other than speed? And is that extra 10-15 minutes worth dropping back into queue?

If a run, for me, normally takes 15-20 minutes, adding another 10 to 15 minutes means a run of 25 to 35 minutes. That's nearly two runs that could have been done in the time to get one done. While I wouldn't leave, I'd not be happy either. My time was wasted for no other reason other than someone was potentially too lazy to learn their class.

If someone plays the game intermittently, and doesn't have all of the best rotations or dungeons mechanics memorized for each possible roulette, does that make them lazy, dumb, or dead weight? Even if they are constantly casting and open to advice? (Remember, even intermittent players will eventually get jobs to max level and accumulate lots of possible runs for DF to choose from; they can't randomly get something they don't totally remember and go watch a video right then when DF pops.)

Playing the game on and off is fine and isn't the issue. I don't ride a bike every day. I don't suddenly forget it, either. You don't learn rotations per dungeon- you learn rotations per situation and most of those situations are melee- 4 or more? AoE!

We're also not talking top-of-the-line DPS, either. Just, actually AoE when AoE is needed. Most people that do "bad DPS" in dungeons do things like single target DPS, even with 8+ mobs up because 'they are a melee DPS and melee DPS can't AoE.' They can. They're actually better than the casters in the right hands, they're just not sustainable. However, you don't need sustain DPS when it comes to AoE. I don't even mind smaller pulls- just don't stop.

Would you be more or less likely to work with a player or to just drop group if they mention up front they are not going to be able to go full tilt and may need help oe advice? This means even if you queued in hoping for quick run before you logged off and this person is "inconveniencing" you? And, is it reasonable then to queue for DF if you are in a rush?

I'm more likely to help someone who actually asks. Most people don't ask and if you say anything, they go full hostile. Which makes me want to leave by AFKing for 10 minutes, getting vote dismissed, or vote dismissing them myself. I don't have the time to babysit an onry player, or even a player that says that line about their sub, acting like it's somehow more important than the other 3 people they are in party with.

Does it seem realistic to expect getting a party full of people who are all familiar with every aspect of an instance and their job who are going full out? Is not a party with people who at least know/are good at 60-80% of their job a pretty good outcome of a random group in a contemporary MMORPG?

The beauty of it is that you don't need to know every aspect. Do you know how to AoE? Can you dodge bad? Can you keep up with the rest of the group? That's really all you need.

I don't ask these things because of personally being insulted or having to deal with drama in parties, but just to get a sense of where the community is on DF. I've seen hundreds of stories in threads here and elsewhere with many views expressed and am curious to see people's opinions when they aren't complaining about a particular run.

When it comes to me, I have the mentality of always go ham and don't practice bad habits. It's really easy to enforce bad habits and very hard to break them. I generally hope anyone else using DF has the same expectations to that degree. It really sucks getting people that refuse to AoE; it makes me work harder, be it I'm on WHM or RDM. Also, when I run roulettes, I'm not there for the social aspect of the game; I want tomestones and I want them as quickly as I am able to gather. Pleasantries are, well, 'pleasant' (not a fan of people, so this is subjective for me), but I want to reach the end of the dungeon ASAP.

There's a huge difference between being bad, everyone working together and "let's treat this like savage." I've yet to ever encounter a time where it ever felt like savage, though I suppose to someone who does bad, it may feel like it (though I question if they ever stepped into savage if they feel like that?) when they are suddenly pressured into doing something they clearly want no part of, for better or for worse.

[tinythinker]

If a run, for me, normally takes 15-20 minutes, adding another 10 to 15 minutes means a run of 25 to 35 minutes. That's nearly two runs that could have been done in the time to get one done. While I wouldn't leave, I'd not be happy either. My time was wasted for no other reason other than someone was potentially too lazy to learn their class.

Playing the game on and off is fine and isn't the issue. I don't ride a bike every day. I don't suddenly forget it, either. You don't learn rotations per dungeon- you learn rotations per situation and most of those situations are melee- 4 or more? AoE!

We're also not talking top-of-the-line DPS, either. Just, actually AoE when AoE is needed. Most people that do "bad DPS" in dungeons do things like single target DPS, even with 8+ mobs up because 'they are a melee DPS and melee DPS can't AoE.' They can. They're actually better than the casters in the right hands, they're just not sustainable. However, you don't need sustain DPS when it comes to AoE. I don't even mind smaller pulls- just don't stop.

I'm more likely to help someone who actually asks. Most people don't ask and if you say anything, they go full hostile. Which makes me want to leave by AFKing for 10 minutes, getting vote dismissed, or vote dismissing them myself. I don't have the time to babysit an onry player, or even a player that says that line about their sub, acting like it's somehow more important than the other 3 people they are in party with.

The beauty of it is that you don't need to know every aspect. Do you know how to AoE? Can you dodge bad? Can you keep up with the rest of the group? That's really all you need.

When it comes to me, I have the mentality of always go ham and don't practice bad habits. It's really easy to enforce bad habits and very hard to break them. I generally hope anyone else using DF has the same expectations to that degree. It really sucks getting people that refuse to AoE; it makes me work harder, be it I'm on WHM or RDM. Also, when I run roulettes, I'm not there for the social aspect of the game; I want tomestones and I want them as quickly as I am able to gather. Pleasantries are, well, 'pleasant' (not a fan of people, so this is subjective for me), but I want to reach the end of the dungeon ASAP.

I note your bolded portions, but I would throw some things out to consider. Not to launch some long debate, but just things that occur to me (that you may already agree with) for people reading the thread to reflect on.

1. It isn't just *your time* or *my time*. That new player, or long-time player who isn't as practiced or skilled, or the one who has performance anxiety, etc, etc is also taking their time to get a clear, earn tomes and gear drops, and maybe also to enjoy the art, the music, and meet people. They have a different capacity for how fast they can run, or maybe they have different priorities for the run even if they *could* qualify in terms of gear, skill, experience, etc. for a group trying for a world record time for that instance. Now you called out lazy players who you feel waste your time, and I agree that if a player just doesn't try that sucks and should be called out, but there's lots of reasons for slower runs that don't involve laziness.

2. Sequential repetition is better than sporadic repetition for learning. To use your example of riding a bike, if I start to learn, but then don't try to ride again for a month, and get back on, the ride will be wobbly. If I start to learn to ride a back, and do it every day for a couple of weeks, it will become muscle memory. That's as far as the bike analogy works, as there are many types of memory involved in learning jobs and instances. Applying that to the game, if you have used DF or run with premades in 5-10 instances per week over six months, the odds are good that this sequential repetition has burned your rotations and where to stand in fights into your brain. If you play a few weeks doing the occassional DF, then are away a bit, then come back while, then are gone again, you will still of course improve, but, the improvement will be irregular (some things you do or remember well, others you don't) and it will take longer. Ironically, a toxic DF atmosphere, whoever is to blame, discourages sequential repetition, getting a sense of bearing, and getting value for your mistakes. (People learn faster if they feel it is OK to make mistakes once in a while and if they are open to friendly corrections and advice.)

3. Not all bosses are the same with mechanics. One of the reasons I and other players can jump into DF and do a halfway decent job even if we haven't seen that instance in a long time is because yes, many mechanics and markers are mostly the same, AoE puddles-cones-columns are bad, and you always have to be out of the AoE well before their animation triggers. However, players get bored, so SE puts in special tricks, traps, and markers for many bosses, and yes, if you can't remember the details of a boss fight, that means you can hurt or wipe your party because of that one-off mechanic. It happens. The question is how the returning/intermittent player reacts and how the rest of the party responds.