Question on DF expectations

[tinythinker]

asking can really be an inncovience sometimes it takes a bit to type out that every time you go into a dungeon. The best thing to do is play how you play and adjust accordingly, I know every dungeon for instance in the game is cappable of being big pulled. So I go in with the mentality to get the dungeon over with in 20 mins. That being said if a healer cant handle it then I will silently go back to the start and just do small pulls its really that simply I dont understand why people get all bent out of shape really. The only time I get mad is if I just don recieve a single heal at all and as someone whom plays all rolls, I know when I healer is using their skills or not.

If you know you are rusty/out of practice with the game, it isn't any harder to put that in the chat than it is for a new player to announce they are the reason for the bonus. Type it out before the queue pops and paste it as soon as the group is formed. I've done this as a new player and when I've been away, pasting it during the initial few seconds of the load-in time, and personally it helped me feel better about doing my best. The party then knew I was trying but might be rusty or forget some things on unique boss fights, so if they went ham and pulled all of the things they did so with the knowledge that I wasn't just lazy and that I might not be up to their standard. That took a lot of pressure off of me as a new/returning player and let me focus on the fights without the distraction of worrying about screwing up.

[bswpayton]

If you know you are rusty/out of practice with the game, it isn't any harder to put that in the chat than it is for a new player to announce they are the reason for the bonus. Type it out before the queue pops and paste it as soon .

That would work if you view new player bonus or returning player as a bad thing. The only time a bonus may matter is in a raid or ex trial which even then maybe it doesnt I dont assume that new players or returners are just bad. A good way to see if someone is bad is to look at their player bar, if the tank isnt using cool downs and ur healing u can see every time they use a df cool down. If a healer isnt using any buffs like largesse, regens, sheilds, rousing the fairy, thin air etc. The other day It was a returning player dragoon I dont think they used botd once I still didnt say anything because I dont like conflict.

But sometimes I will throw out tips tho, I was running msq the other day and the ot turned off grit and darkside Im guessing not knowing you can have darkside up without grit they arent one skill. But yea you can see effort by just seeing whether or not people are using their skills, just by lookin at their player bar thats the best indicator. To me its not really any excuse for not reading ur tool tips I dont expect 4k dps in a leveling dungeon or anything, but I will get frustrated if someone hasnt taken the time to read their tool tips.

And Id say the biggest grip would be dps that dont aoe, more so than any healer, new or returning if ur in a dungeon u aoe on trash mobs if its more than three adds I dont see how this can be excuse that includes tanks. Everyone has off runs are some people may have fatigue from runnin to much in a day, but in dungeons u aoe, use buffs on healer and tank, if you not tryin to do any of those then yea you are being lazy like someone else says.

But new are returning doesnt mean bad at all, most of the time Im lookin for bonuses for extra poetics for relics these days so I dont look at it as a bad thing at all. So its really no need to say hey do u want this are that the best thing to do is just play it by ear, and not get pissed cause some healer or dps couldnt handle my super pull.

[Furiea]

speed is a measurement of performance. faster the better. period. most people are very understanding when they see there are 1st timer in the dungeon.

as for bad players who doesn't know their rotation... they really should be kicked. it is now 2017 (almost 2018) and there is no excuse for a MMO player not to search on the internet on how to be better at the job they are playing. No one wants to play with a tank that doesn't tank nor a healer that let everyone die; likewise, no one wants a DPS that can't kill.

[NekoNova]

speed is a measurement of performance. faster the better. period. most people are very understanding when they see there are 1st timer in the dungeon.

as for bad players who doesn't know their rotation... they really should be kicked. it is now 2017 (almost 2018) and there is no excuse for a MMO player not to search on the internet on how to be better at the job they are playing. No one wants to play with a tank that doesn't tank nor a healer that let everyone die; likewise, no one wants a DPS that can't kill.

I agree with that to some extend.
But I don't want to play with people that pull every dungeon up to Deltascape 4 Savage requirements

[TaleraRistain]

My mentality is - did we clear it? Then it was a good run. Doesn't matter if it took 10 minutes or 40 minutes. DF is a random matching system that tosses players of all skill levels together and you don't know what you're going to get. I can keep my chill there no matter what it throws at me because I don't go in with expectations. If I want to start setting requirements, then I would use PF.

[JunseiKei]

What do you think is acceptable?

It largely depends on me and what my own constraints are.

For example, is getting a super-fast speed run the measure of a "good run"? If a run takes 10-15 minutes longer to work with party members who are making a serious effort yet make some mistakes and learn, is that a "bad run"? Do you have criteria for a good run other than speed? And is that extra 10-15 minutes worth dropping back into queue?

If a run, for me, normally takes 15-20 minutes, adding another 10 to 15 minutes means a run of 25 to 35 minutes. That's nearly two runs that could have been done in the time to get one done. While I wouldn't leave, I'd not be happy either. My time was wasted for no other reason other than someone was potentially too lazy to learn their class.

If someone plays the game intermittently, and doesn't have all of the best rotations or dungeons mechanics memorized for each possible roulette, does that make them lazy, dumb, or dead weight? Even if they are constantly casting and open to advice? (Remember, even intermittent players will eventually get jobs to max level and accumulate lots of possible runs for DF to choose from; they can't randomly get something they don't totally remember and go watch a video right then when DF pops.)

Playing the game on and off is fine and isn't the issue. I don't ride a bike every day. I don't suddenly forget it, either. You don't learn rotations per dungeon- you learn rotations per situation and most of those situations are melee- 4 or more? AoE!

We're also not talking top-of-the-line DPS, either. Just, actually AoE when AoE is needed. Most people that do "bad DPS" in dungeons do things like single target DPS, even with 8+ mobs up because 'they are a melee DPS and melee DPS can't AoE.' They can. They're actually better than the casters in the right hands, they're just not sustainable. However, you don't need sustain DPS when it comes to AoE. I don't even mind smaller pulls- just don't stop.

Would you be more or less likely to work with a player or to just drop group if they mention up front they are not going to be able to go full tilt and may need help oe advice? This means even if you queued in hoping for quick run before you logged off and this person is "inconveniencing" you? And, is it reasonable then to queue for DF if you are in a rush?

I'm more likely to help someone who actually asks. Most people don't ask and if you say anything, they go full hostile. Which makes me want to leave by AFKing for 10 minutes, getting vote dismissed, or vote dismissing them myself. I don't have the time to babysit an onry player, or even a player that says that line about their sub, acting like it's somehow more important than the other 3 people they are in party with.

Does it seem realistic to expect getting a party full of people who are all familiar with every aspect of an instance and their job who are going full out? Is not a party with people who at least know/are good at 60-80% of their job a pretty good outcome of a random group in a contemporary MMORPG?

The beauty of it is that you don't need to know every aspect. Do you know how to AoE? Can you dodge bad? Can you keep up with the rest of the group? That's really all you need.

I don't ask these things because of personally being insulted or having to deal with drama in parties, but just to get a sense of where the community is on DF. I've seen hundreds of stories in threads here and elsewhere with many views expressed and am curious to see people's opinions when they aren't complaining about a particular run.

When it comes to me, I have the mentality of always go ham and don't practice bad habits. It's really easy to enforce bad habits and very hard to break them. I generally hope anyone else using DF has the same expectations to that degree. It really sucks getting people that refuse to AoE; it makes me work harder, be it I'm on WHM or RDM. Also, when I run roulettes, I'm not there for the social aspect of the game; I want tomestones and I want them as quickly as I am able to gather. Pleasantries are, well, 'pleasant' (not a fan of people, so this is subjective for me), but I want to reach the end of the dungeon ASAP.

There's a huge difference between being bad, everyone working together and "let's treat this like savage." I've yet to ever encounter a time where it ever felt like savage, though I suppose to someone who does bad, it may feel like it (though I question if they ever stepped into savage if they feel like that?) when they are suddenly pressured into doing something they clearly want no part of, for better or for worse.

[tinythinker]

If a run, for me, normally takes 15-20 minutes, adding another 10 to 15 minutes means a run of 25 to 35 minutes. That's nearly two runs that could have been done in the time to get one done. While I wouldn't leave, I'd not be happy either. My time was wasted for no other reason other than someone was potentially too lazy to learn their class.

Playing the game on and off is fine and isn't the issue. I don't ride a bike every day. I don't suddenly forget it, either. You don't learn rotations per dungeon- you learn rotations per situation and most of those situations are melee- 4 or more? AoE!

We're also not talking top-of-the-line DPS, either. Just, actually AoE when AoE is needed. Most people that do "bad DPS" in dungeons do things like single target DPS, even with 8+ mobs up because 'they are a melee DPS and melee DPS can't AoE.' They can. They're actually better than the casters in the right hands, they're just not sustainable. However, you don't need sustain DPS when it comes to AoE. I don't even mind smaller pulls- just don't stop.

I'm more likely to help someone who actually asks. Most people don't ask and if you say anything, they go full hostile. Which makes me want to leave by AFKing for 10 minutes, getting vote dismissed, or vote dismissing them myself. I don't have the time to babysit an onry player, or even a player that says that line about their sub, acting like it's somehow more important than the other 3 people they are in party with.

The beauty of it is that you don't need to know every aspect. Do you know how to AoE? Can you dodge bad? Can you keep up with the rest of the group? That's really all you need.

When it comes to me, I have the mentality of always go ham and don't practice bad habits. It's really easy to enforce bad habits and very hard to break them. I generally hope anyone else using DF has the same expectations to that degree. It really sucks getting people that refuse to AoE; it makes me work harder, be it I'm on WHM or RDM. Also, when I run roulettes, I'm not there for the social aspect of the game; I want tomestones and I want them as quickly as I am able to gather. Pleasantries are, well, 'pleasant' (not a fan of people, so this is subjective for me), but I want to reach the end of the dungeon ASAP.

I note your bolded portions, but I would throw some things out to consider. Not to launch some long debate, but just things that occur to me (that you may already agree with) for people reading the thread to reflect on.

1. It isn't just *your time* or *my time*. That new player, or long-time player who isn't as practiced or skilled, or the one who has performance anxiety, etc, etc is also taking their time to get a clear, earn tomes and gear drops, and maybe also to enjoy the art, the music, and meet people. They have a different capacity for how fast they can run, or maybe they have different priorities for the run even if they *could* qualify in terms of gear, skill, experience, etc. for a group trying for a world record time for that instance. Now you called out lazy players who you feel waste your time, and I agree that if a player just doesn't try that sucks and should be called out, but there's lots of reasons for slower runs that don't involve laziness.

2. Sequential repetition is better than sporadic repetition for learning. To use your example of riding a bike, if I start to learn, but then don't try to ride again for a month, and get back on, the ride will be wobbly. If I start to learn to ride a back, and do it every day for a couple of weeks, it will become muscle memory. That's as far as the bike analogy works, as there are many types of memory involved in learning jobs and instances. Applying that to the game, if you have used DF or run with premades in 5-10 instances per week over six months, the odds are good that this sequential repetition has burned your rotations and where to stand in fights into your brain. If you play a few weeks doing the occassional DF, then are away a bit, then come back while, then are gone again, you will still of course improve, but, the improvement will be irregular (some things you do or remember well, others you don't) and it will take longer. Ironically, a toxic DF atmosphere, whoever is to blame, discourages sequential repetition, getting a sense of bearing, and getting value for your mistakes. (People learn faster if they feel it is OK to make mistakes once in a while and if they are open to friendly corrections and advice.)

3. Not all bosses are the same with mechanics. One of the reasons I and other players can jump into DF and do a halfway decent job even if we haven't seen that instance in a long time is because yes, many mechanics and markers are mostly the same, AoE puddles-cones-columns are bad, and you always have to be out of the AoE well before their animation triggers. However, players get bored, so SE puts in special tricks, traps, and markers for many bosses, and yes, if you can't remember the details of a boss fight, that means you can hurt or wipe your party because of that one-off mechanic. It happens. The question is how the returning/intermittent player reacts and how the rest of the party responds.

[Spiroglyph]

My only criteria is EFFORT.
I don't care if you're new player or an old time raider, how much damage you dish out or how many overmelds you have - there's ways to see how invested you are in being a good asset to the team that go beyond those things.
Cooldown usage, usage of team utility skills, even your TP/MP/cast bars. :P

[Felis]

A good run is if nobody die, if nobody start to daydream, if the tank pull 2 or 3 groups that die fast, if boss fights will be smooth like a hot knife in butter

[micropanther7]

What do you think is acceptable?

For example, is getting a super-fast speed run the measure of a "good run"? If a run takes 10-15 minutes longer to work with party members who are making a serious effort yet make some mistakes and learn, is that a "bad run"? Do you have criteria for a good run other than speed? And is that extra 10-15 minutes worth dropping back into queue?

If someone plays the game intermittently, and doesn't have all of the best rotations or dungeons mechanics memorized for each possible roulette, does that make them lazy, dumb, or dead weight? Even if they are constantly casting and open to advice? (Remember, even intermittent players will eventually get jobs to max level and accumulate lots of possible runs for DF to choose from; they can't randomly get something they don't totally remember and go watch a video right then when DF pops.)

Would you be more or less likely to work with a player or to just drop group if they mention up front they are not going to be able to go full tilt and may need help oe advice? This means even if you queued in hoping for quick run before you logged off and this person is "inconveniencing" you? And, is it reasonable then to queue for DF if you are in a rush?

Does it seem realistic to expect getting a party full of people who are all familiar with every aspect of an instance and their job who are going full out? Is not a party with people who at least know/are good at 60-80% of their job a pretty good outcome of a random group in a contemporary MMORPG?

I don't ask these things because of personally being insulted or having to deal with drama in parties, but just to get a sense of where the community is on DF. I've seen hundreds of stories in threads here and elsewhere with many views expressed and am curious to see people's opinions when they aren't complaining about a particular run.

Only speaking for myself here... it's best not to have ANY expectations, once that queue pops you get what you're given I would rather people take their time and be chilled out, you don't have to be perfect, but if you try that means something. A wipe does not matter, more importantly I find people best learn when you aren't raging at them for one wipe, for not rolling for an item within 0.1 nanoseconds... I'd take less skilled, more positive, laid back people any day than over some salty, raging person that knows what they're doing.

When I was doing Doma Castle yesterday, the dps was giving the tank a hard time... he was a flippin' good tank and all, he just forgot about a few extra mobs and we wiped. I accidentally pulled and apologised, he was so cool about it, I'd run with him all day everyday If I ever Raided though, I would expect stricter measures, and appreciate why people get upset who've put time and effort into learning, and just want to farm :/ Hence why I would never raid, I know my reflexes aren't good enough But in normal dungeons and msq trials, some people really need to chill, if you're not happy with the level of skill in DF, you're gonna get teasy really quickly, not everyone is on the same skill level