Warrior of Light: A Mindless Killer

[Kallera]

P.P.S. Hey, Theo? Not attacking you, but... uhh... I ran into someone in-game the other day, and he used to be a regular poster here. Said he stopped, in part, cuza you. In the spirit of confidentiality I won't say his name; and I might be sarcastic a lot of the time, but I do my utmost to avoid lies since I hate them. Just something to consider.

I stopped posting because I was sick of arguing with you. It didn't make me suddenly like the msq more, or make its characters more bearable, only the msq can do that. I cannot force SE to make the Garleans not single note drones that practically scream "we're the empire race, kill us en masse!". Or at least make them more lively and not fall for every trick in the book. I can only decide if such a thing no longer makes it worth paying and playing.

Until then, I can just enjoy roleplaying my character the way I want to.

[Alleo]

At no point have I suggested that Garlemald is perfect, fully justified or without a need for at least some reform. I - and certain other posters - have merely stepped in to ensure that these debates do not become a circle jerk that involve bashing Garlemald at every possible turn and bending over backwards to excuse the darker elements of both the Warrior of Light and the rest of the protagonists where applicable.

Last bit of topic: And I never said that you see them as perfect..only that you defend them and say that we will see how wrong we are in the future because they would change. It was just a bit of a hint that everyone of us has their own bit of canon ideas and that itself is not wrong.

Anyway would have liked if you have reacted to the rest of my more on topic post where I pointed out that even the Derplander himself is far away from a mindless killer, even if we take everything as canon. I would even dare to say that next to some poor decisions and some morally ambitious actions (relic quest), he is way more good than a lot of NPCs. Look at the scions who concentrate on things like primal fights (and never really getting near a long time solution of stopping it) but are never shown to do more than that. Yet even though Derplander has so much on his plate, he still goes out of the way to help Zhloe and the kids and more. Heck if we see everything as canon then he even played part in an act to replay the calamity to make people happy. He is far from feeling to good to do simple tasks for the common people and even if he is not perfect good, he is far away from being a true killer and far away from being a mindless one. So yes even without taking our character perspective into this, I simply cant agree with the OP.

If it isnt flat out stated that we murdered someone, I always assume I just incapacitated the opponent. That bird woke up later.

Haha that its how I see it too for a lot of fights, especially since we go against friendly NPCs in a sparing match and they often have the same dieing animation as our real enemies. I am quite sure that we did not go around in Sohr Khai and slaughter the little dragon children and the same with that one sparing dungeon. I mean we are powerful fighters, so we should know how to defeat an enemy without killing them.

I'm struggling to understand how this makes any logical sense. Other than things specifically branded as non-canon by SE, why would side quests etc. NOT be canon? Particularly since a good chunk of the lorebook is compiled from such sources. One does not need to commit to the extreme of "everything is canon" to allow for the majority of in-game quest material - particularly job quest material - to be canon.

Because we were not even only talking about side quests but also about every single fate and things like that, which I found hard to believe. And if we go around and say that every single bit in the game is canon (which was not my view) then we would have to accept that even those events are canon. As long as Yoshida and his team dont go around and explain to us what it truly canon, we simply cant say what is 100% factual canon and what not. So I am not saying that I am right, but I agree more with the view that only the MSQ and side quests are canon, if the player did them. But heck even if we say everything is canon, its still makes the derplander not look that bad. He did way more good than bad things.

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The last pages really got a bit heated but to be honest as someone that was a long time lurker and only started to post recently I am not surprised. :/ Saying something is only humor after using personal attacks in some topics is really not that effective. I cant go around and attack someone personally (and no there are more people that do it not just one) and then say that its just some kind of humor..especially since a bit later there is a nice post that says that a lot of forum posters are sheep/part of a echo chamber. I can agree to disagree on topics, I already did it with others because I can see when everyone said their points. Heck I was even trying to steer that one topic back towards being more about the OP yet it was completely ignored..but since this is a discussion forum one does not always have to agree to disagree (or we would have no discussion at all), sometimes you just see certain points that you strongly disagree with, or that just gives you more content to discuss about it. Why should one stop to discuss it? When the other part has no interest anymore they can simply stop posting about this and everyone else should be able to post how much they want and as long as its without any personal attacks then no harm should come out of it. (Nobody is forced to read every thread if they are bored of it)

In this topic alone most even said that everyone has a different WoL thus it depends on their view how they will see it but that mostly we are not mindless killers because of certain reasons..only you Theodric started that all of our views are wrong because there is only derplander as canon and that everything is completely canon. So this sounds to me more like we should conform to your view. Anyway I am lurking a lot on reddit and the echo chamber is really strong there too. If you dont have the view of a certain crowd, you will be downvoted into oblivion. But I still enjoy both.

As for myself... I do apologize if my sarcasm comes across as scathing, but my intention is never to provoke ill will or come across as condescending. If ever I am being sarcastic, I'm trying to provoke thought (or otherwise have simply lost my patience - I'm only human).

Nooooo now I cant get that song out of my head again....damn you Cilia damn you *shakes fist angrily and stares in a WoL way*

[Kallera]

Are we mindless? no, and I hope not. were it revealed that were were some "dream entity born of Carteneau" or a "aspect of hydaelyn" playing at mortal life, I might just set down the controller. As it means our character is completely not our own, they are no longer a person, but an entity above and impervious of, the conflict. It is a thin line between someone we came in some way relate to, vs. a fake of the character I created in 1.0

But we are a killer, to the point that it disturbs our character when thinking about how many have died at our hands. It might well disturb others, one day.

[Grayve]

(Aside from the cash you shelled out for it, I mean. That part is obvious.)

Which is the reason. Maybe for you, 60$ isn't a lot of money. But it is for me, and most of my friends. To made to feel bad about choices we have no control over, or to quit playing our means of entertainment, after a not insignificant financial outlay, is not a choice.

And is this thread devolving into another 'Garleans are Good' thread? *sigh* Dont people ever get tired of this?

[Cilia]

I stopped posting because I was sick of arguing with you. It didn't make me suddenly like the msq more, or make its characters more bearable, only the msq can do that. I cannot force SE to make the Garleans not single note drones that practically scream "we're the empire race, kill us en masse!". Or at least make them more lively and not fall for every trick in the book. I can only decide if such a thing no longer makes it worth paying and playing.

Until then, I can just enjoy roleplaying my character the way I want to.

I'm sorry if I aggravated you into quitting; I can be stubborn and combative at times. I wasn't trying to force any particular canon explanation for the Warrior of Light's actions on you; just trying to explain how we could possibly think fighting the Empire is the right thing to do. It's not up to me to tell you how to play your character, but if there are differences between the very loosely canon portrayal of the Warrior of Light and how you think they should be, it's up to you to reconcile those differences.

Or just say that's not what my character did. That's an entirely valid way of roleplaying.

Again, I apologize if I offended or aggravated you. I know it's not much, but it's all I can offer over the internet.

Nooooo now I cant get that song out of my head again....damn you Cilia damn you *shakes fist angrily and stares in a WoL way*

Ehh? What song? (I'm not being sarcastic.)

Which is the reason. Maybe for you, 60$ isn't a lot of money. But it is for me, and most of my friends. To made to feel bad about choices we have no control over, or to quit playing our means of entertainment, after a not insignificant financial outlay, is not a choice.

It is, but I bought it a while after it came out, and I knew full well what it was about going in. (Which probably makes me worse than anyone else, despite my love of nonlethal / stealth runs in games that allow it.) The choice may have been unpleasant, but it was still there.

[Alleo]

@Cilia: Rag'n'Bone Man - Human

I heard it so often and reading things like I am only human really brings it back. :'D

Sorry for that bit off topic.

And is this thread devolving into another 'Garleans are Good' thread? *sigh* Dont people ever get tired of this?

Somehow just mentioning them in anyway will often lead to a discussion about it. Its completely fine in some threads (like the one about SB stories, since they do play a big part of it) but its certainly a bit annoying that some threads evolve into it just because someone uses them as an example or even just a bit. (Like one of my posts which was not meant to start another Garlean debatte x)) I kinda try to ignore further posts on this in threads where this does make much sense but yeah its kinda interesting to see them pop up all the time.

[Theodric]

And is this thread devolving into another 'Garleans are Good' thread? *sigh* Dont people ever get tired of this?

Yeah - multiple posters have expressed their weariness where the debates in question are concerned, myself included. Some have done it on this very sub-forum whilst others have done so in-game or elsewhere. At the end of the day attempts to lessen their presence have been made but that requires a group effort and no horrific attempts to try and pin the blame on a single poster for an issue that is perpetuated by multiple individuals across numerous threads. There's a major difference between discussing the game's lore and discussing one's personal interpretation of morality and nuances.

So, in short, I'll continue to stare at my screen with the following expression whenever the same tiresome points are brought up and regurgitated:



For the record, I'm not saying that these debates shouldn't happen at all. Just that it's pretty clear that in circumstances where it's the same handful of stubborn posters interacting with one another the most efficient and logical route is to agree to disagree. Especially when the subject matter being discussed is completely subjective. Like I said, I saw the exact same problem plague the lore forum back when I played WoW. I spent a lot of time there pointing out that from the perspective of the blood elves - a race driven close to extinction through no fault of their own - they were justified in doing whatever it took for the sake of the survival of their homeland and people. Perhaps the name I posted as there - Solbranthius - will ring a bell for some here. Perhaps not.

It isn't my intention to change anybody's mind. It's simply my intention to highlight that nuances exist and that one's own world view is not necessarily the only interpretation that matters. Sure, we can rant and rave about how stuff 'should' play out in an idealistic manner but people are far, far more complicated than that. Especially when they live in a world such as Hydaelyn that isn't a particularly pleasant or safe place to begin with. So, if that can be acknowledged? Great! If not, then nothing will change and the cycle will continue.

[Miyha]

How... how did you people get this thread to devolve into this? 0o

I mean I thought it was as cut and dry as "your WoL is what you make of them" but... guess not. ._.

Interesting.

Welp, while you guys fight over this stuff I'll be over here enjoying the game, lore, story, and my character the way I wish to see her (which is not as a mindless killer), because she's my character. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Alleo]

I really should not be surprised by some posts but I am still that when I read them..anyway I agree with Miyha, I see my WoL as far away from being a mindless killer and I see even the derplander as far away as being a mindless killer and even pointed out the different parts of the game that shows that the derplanders does mostly good things but somehow these arguments where ignored by a lot of those that are seeing him as a mindless killer. (And yes I know that we kill people but most of that is in pure self defense since they would kill us if we stop fighting)