Tank role action complaint time

[Zfz]

I don't know about balancing, but I do know one thing:

The current Role Actions system is boring, not fun, not interesting, and often just a plain chore to switch out skills according to the content. So much so, that we would right macros to do it.

What the hell even is the point of forcing the "choices" when they don't matter? We'll always be taking Shirk in anything that requires tank swaps. We'll always be taking Low Blow in dungeons that need tank interrupts.

The concept of Role Actions is fine. The implementation in which a chore is forced upon us is not fine. The issue of Protect for healers perfectly illustrates the stupidity that went into this implementation.

[LeeraSorlan]

on a note of someone who said you cant dark arts aniticipation (considering its just the thing DRK lost) I found it curious that deployment tactics DOES spread eye 4 eye still, despite it being a role action.

wonder why they chose to keep that and not DRKs ability to dark arts the skill they lost

[Freyyy]

on a note of someone who said you cant dark arts aniticipation (considering its just the thing DRK lost) I found it curious that deployment tactics DOES spread eye 4 eye still, despite it being a role action.

wonder why they chose to keep that and not DRKs ability to dark arts the skill they lost

You can also add that PLD's Intervention can be buffed by Rampart.

[LeeraSorlan]

You can also add that PLD's Intervention can be buffed by Rampart.

ohh true that slipped my mind

[MiniPrinny]

Criticisms

So, this will all be personal opinion, but I figured I'd throw in my opinions on them one by one and then what I would do to fix the problem. And before anyone mentions, this isn't a "they changed it so it sucks" criticism, it's a "they changed it to something with somehow less choice than before" criticism.

Rampart - This ability is dreadfully guilty of a simple "why does this exist here" complaint. Prior to Stormblood, we had Rampart on the two jobs that used it as their bread and butter cooldown. Even now, Warrior doesn't really feel like it needs it, they just happen to have it, their kit has no dire need of it to feel complete. Because of this, Rampart feels necessary on Dark Knight and Paladin, while its gratuitous on Warrior. Honestly, it's just a bad choice that reeks of a last minute decision or one made because they couldn't think of better.

Low Blow - This move has a ton of issues in both flavor and concept. As a Paladin, the ability feels very off. An honorable knight would not be taking nutshots, neither would a respectable Gladiator. Meanwhile, a raging berserker likely wouldn't have the presence of mind to aim for such a vulnerable area. This leaves it only well suited for the job that had it, Dark Knight. Low Blow was more of an unnecessary gift for Paladin, who up until Stormblood lacked a stun as an ability. And rather than remake Shield Bash, they took away Brutal Swing from Warrior and Low Blow from Dark Knight for this weaker and less useful version.

Provoke - Mandatory. Should just be something tanks have as a tank. End of discussion.

Convalescence - This is the first role ability that probably deserves its place. Convalescence has always been a situational ability at best. While Dark Knight and Warrior get more use out of it than Paladin, the ability has its place on all three. Convalescence is likely the best example we have of a role ability that deserves to be one, it isn't mandatory and feels good to use when you can use it well.

Anticipation - This is just a bad ability. With tanks not being able to parry magic, not even Dark Knights who fight with blades sheathed in magic. Anticipation has no real use. It is made worse by the fact that parrying is still based on a positional requirement and the fact that Rampart exists as a role action. Dark Dance was better due to its restriction to Dark Knight and its enhanced form which while seemingly weak, had niche uses, for example did you know that Uplander Doom (Quickthinx Savage) can be dodged?

Reprisal - What was once as a Dark Knight main my most frustrating cooldown, it has turned into a near requirement in 8-man content beyond story mode raids and trials. Reprisal suffers from another problem that I have with the Blackest Night, its duration. The combat developers have this weird idea that 5s buffs and debuffs are "okay" when the server only checks for these things every 3s. There's been numerous times where I've seen the Blackest Night ignored due to this and I'm sure I've missed moments with Reprisals that were used too late that did the same thing. While it shouldn't be baseline like Rampart, Provoke, and Low Blow, it should be buffed to at least an 8s duration and perhaps be renamed and reanimated to something more suiting. Exactly what are we giving a reprisal to if we use it preemptively?

Awareness - Garbage. I've hated this cooldown since I learned about it. Random critical hits have been a frustrating aspect of the game since 2.0 and probably should be removed from tanks. They only add an unpredictable softness to us and add unneeded stress to healers. If they really want bosses that can critically hit, just have them do it as a phase like Shiva and do a better job of balancing their damage output, rather than this... "thing" which they need to invent uses for.

Interject - Another dubious ability. Interject wasn't really needed and silences have often had a niche use. If we saw uses for them more often, like stuns, Interject would shine. However, it doesn't explain why Interject (Throat Jab?) isn't a Dark Knight ability to go along with Paladin's Spirits Within and Warrior's Upheaval. Honestly, this one is a take it or leave it.

Ultimatum - Garbage. Why are you losing enmity to multiple targets? Why doesn't this generate enmity on its own so (poor, poor) Warrior doesn't have to precisely aim Overpower constantly in dungeons? If you lost enmity to multiple targets, do you really think Ultimatum will fix that? Do you really need two versions of Provoke?! Just remove this, and if you use this, you are bad and should feel bad.

Shirk - This is perhaps the golden goose of tank role abilities. Shirk is shockingly good and has multiple uses. It isn't mandatory, but also feels like its too good to ignore. However, you don't need it all the time, so it's definitely something, which like Reprisal, should be a role action, but feels bad that you to "waste" a slot on something this strong.

Changes

Now then, we're left with 3/8 role actions that are decent-to-good. Convalescence, Reprisal, and Shirk. Interject is an iffy one, but it could probably stay. So, other than giving Paladin and Dark Knight their base defensive action back and perhaps giving everyone their stuns back and a thematic version of Provoke, what can be done?

Lv. 8: Glory. At Lv. 8, Marauder and Gladiator are likely still feeling very squishy, and Lv. 12 isn't much better. So, why not give them something that will make soloing easier. Glory would function exactly as Bloodbath does, it heals for damage dealt. Tanks used to have Bloodbath as a cross-class from Marauder and could be used by Dark Knight and Paladin. What Glory would change is the value, so its either stronger or weaker, based on what the development team wants. But it would be a very strong tool for all three tanks in solo and 4-man content, where their damage can be converted to healing quite quickly and efficiently. And yes, I do mean all damage.

Lv. 12: Conviction. This ability would a combination of a pair of melee role abilities: Second Wind and Invigorate. Conviction, would restore 300 TP, 30% of the tank's maximum MP and 10% of the tank's maximum HP on a 3m CD. This action would be exceptionally useful for all three tanks both while solo and while in both 4- and 8-man content. Tanks have the most HP, so while solo, potions quickly fall off and restore less when compared to the other Jobs, making them not as great of an option for self-healing. Meanwhile, only Warrior has a means of restoring TP, while Paladin consumes it quickly on trash and Dark Knights, with their weakened MP regen, can't use Abyssal Drain as freely. Conviction would aid with all of this while also functioning as an emergency heal in a pinch in groups.

Lv. 16: Inspire. Lv. 16 should be something tanks can use immediately in a party to feel good. While boosting damage for the group is a bad idea (for many reasons), how about instead we gave tanks something which can be used to aid the group in damage indirectly. Inspire. Inspire would restore the groups TP and MP over 15s with a 3m cooldown, functioning as a weaker version of both Tactician and Refresh. While not a perfect answer for either, its an action both suiting for tanks and gives tanks an answer for when their ranger is either missing or is unable to use those actions.

Lv. 24: Reprisal. I like the name, sue me. Reprisal would be changed from what it is, to the first of the role actions tanks can take to upgrade their personal damage. Anticipation would, when the tank next suffers damage, reduce that damage by 5% and then reflect an attack back with a potency of 400, it would have a 2m CD and offer tanks some burst damage either while solo or when needed against a boss. Comes with a shared recast timer with En Garde.

Lv. 32: Detain. It's Reprisal, just using magicked chains or something instead.

Lv. 36: En Garde. The second of the tank actions to upgrade their personal damage. En Garde would increase the tank's chance to parry by 20% and would respond to any attacks with an attack of their own with a potency of 25. While it only would last a mere 10s, it would be a glorious 10s with a shared recast timer with Reprisal.

Lv. 40: Interject. It's... Interject. Honestly, it's a so-so ability, but it's well suited.

Lv. 44: Ultimatum. Not the terrible one we know now. Ultimatum would instead of what it does currently, offer a tank something unique. Ultimatum would increase the enmity in the target while also reducing the damage the target deals to the tank by 5% for 10s on a 90s recast. Its enmity increase would be roughly equal to an attack with 1,800 potency.

Lv. 48: Shirk. Enough said.

So, there we go. That's my view on what the tank roles should be. I doubt we'll see any of this, since most of the roles have this issue currently, it's just most pronounced on tanks and healers.

[Shinkyo]

Snip

You're analysis is the very opposite of what SE aimed to achieve with the role skills.
You say that mandatory skill like provoke should be a native tank skill but that exactly the whole point of the role skill concept. To define a baseline set of tools that should be available to all tanks, some being straight mandatory and others situationals.

As for WAR and rampart, given their current dps they do need it as (for good or worst), it completely replaces Inner Beast which means you can use your gauge solely for DPS.
Because of Rampart, we do not use IB outside of fuck ups and emergencies.

[MauvaisOeil]

It is made worse by the fact that parrying is still based on a positional requirement and the fact that Rampart exists as a role action.

I don't think this asset is true. When I RI on my warrior with awareness, I can parry 360° with no drawbacks. Pretty cool as a synergy.

[DRKoftheAzure]

Just buff Rampart to where it increases Defense by 20%, put Low Blow and Reprisal back on DRK(while giving WAR their Brutal Swing back) give Anticipation to PLD (also giving back Dark Dance back to DRK), DELETE INTERJECT AND GIVE PLDS BACK THEIR SILENCE BACK AND GIVE BACK DRK 3RD COMBO FINISHER, and replace them with Second Wind, Bloodbath, Mercy Stroke and Fracture(reworking it as an oGCD DoT)

[Gravton]

Why do we even have provoke and shirk? Couldn't they just rework provoke to steal half the threat from the person with the most threat?

[Tridus]

I completely disagree. The Role skill system is far better than what we had and the only reason people complaining is because "They changed it. Therefore it sucks."

The only real problem with the current Cross-role system is the annoyance factor of swapping skills out which leads to a "set it and forget it" mentality. If we could create quick swap role-skill sets few would be complaining about the system.

You can fake it with a pair of macros: one to remove X skills and add Y skills, and another to remove Y skills and add X skills.