Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?

[LineageRazor]

(2) the enemy posed an imminent threat to a greater number of her troops or civilians - also not true.

Is this really not true? As a direct result of her failure to continue the bombardment (thanks to Estinien), the alliance was able to survive the battle at Specula Imperatoris and move on to overwhelm the defenses at Castrum Abania and eventually lay siege to Ala Mihgo. That indicates to me that yes, the enemy was an imminent threat, as they proved very much to be. Firing on her own people was, certainly, an extremely ruthless tactic, but by doing so she ensured that the Alliance would be caught off-guard, as they were extremely surprised. If she'd been able to keep up the barrage, it could very well have ended the conflict right there, saving countless numbers of her soldiers that would be lost in the days to come. The Alliance NPCs speculate on this very outcome while they wonder why the cannon stopped firing - as horrible as sacrificing her own men might have been, once she committed to it there was no good reason for her to have stopped, as it was, in fact, a devastating blow.

There are other factors to consider, as well. In addition to being a tactically sound strategy, this was very clearly a test of her loyalty by Zenos (and very probably a way for him to get his jollies, ordering his subordinate to slaughter her closest companions). Already in hot water for her failure at Castellium Velodyna, she knew very well that to refuse the order would very likely have lead to her own death - and if that were to happen, her long-term goal of saving Ala Mihgo by proving the worth of Ala Mihgans to the Empire would end then and there. In addition to saving the greater number of her forces, she was also saving all the people of Ala Mihgo. She also believed that her companions would have been willing to sacrifice themselves for that goal - essentially, she had their permission to kill them. (Not so much the other rank-and-file Garlean soldiers but, eh, needs of the many and all that).

She didn't want to do it, but did it anyway for what she saw to be the greater good. Certainly, her actions were monstrous, but her reasons for doing so were not. "Just following orders" may not be an excuse for wrongdoing, but it doesn't change the fact that the lion's share of the blame lies with the one giving the orders, not the ones pulling the triggers. Zenos is the true monster here.

[SendohJin]

Is this really not true? As a direct result of her failure to continue the bombardment (thanks to Estinien), the alliance was able to survive the battle at Specula Imperatoris and move on to overwhelm the defenses at Castrum Abania and eventually lay siege to Ala Mihgo.

nope, that's a perversion of "imminent", imminent only works if the target she was firing on was firing a cannon or missile of their own or setting off a bomb. like if someone took over a nuclear sub and is capable of launching nukes and you had to order a destroyer to shoot down your own sub with your own soldiers in it. if someone took over a plane and was flying a plane into a building and you had to order a fighter jet to shoot down a civilian plane. those are imminent.

your "direct result" is trying to predict the future. she can't know and you can't know at the moment of her issuing the order that Castrum Abania would never fall and Ala Mhigo would never be sieged. even if she gets off 3 more shots, that might only delay Castrum Abania's fall by a few months. Castrum Abania is an event that happened LATER, it's by the very definition of imminent not imminent.

your definition of imminent can justify all kinds of atrocities including mass genocide. your definition of imminent will nuke all of the Middle East and North Korea tomorrow civilian casualties be damned.

Firing on her own people was, certainly, an extremely ruthless tactic

Thus a monster, I didn't say monsters can't make effective generals. I'm also not making the argument that sometimes you might need a monster to defeat another monster.

once she committed to it there was no good reason for her to have stopped, as it was, in fact, a devastating blow.

she became a monster when she committed to the first shot, i agree there's no good reason for her to stop, since she's a monster.

She didn't want to do it, but did it anyway for what she saw to be the greater good.

didn't say a monster can't lead to a greater good. i think that was Vayne's driving force in FFXII.

it doesn't matter that she didn't want to do it, she did it. lots of child molestors don't want to do it.

Certainly, her actions were monstrous, but her reasons for doing so were not. "Just following orders" may not be an excuse for wrongdoing, but it doesn't change the fact that the lion's share of the blame lies with the one giving the orders, not the ones pulling the triggers. Zenos is the true monster here.

she gave the order, not Zenos, just because Zenos is a bigger monster doesn't make her not one?

a rapist is a rapist even if they were raped by their father.

[Galgarion]

a rapist is a rapist even if they were raped by their father.

Jesus Christ. Accurate statement, but not very tactful. Couldn't we be a little less extreme in our examples?

[Quor]

Jesus Christ. Accurate statement, but not very tactful. Couldn't we be a little less extreme in our examples?

If it works, it works. We *are* talking about monsters and monstrous actions here.

More to the point, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Lots of good arguments have been made that Fordola did what she felt was the right thing at the right time, for long term purposes or otherwise. That's all well and good, and true too, but it doesn't mean it's less monstrous. The saving grace of this, the thing that allows for some sort of redemption for her, is the outright abusive relationship she was forced into at Zenos' feet coupled with her own noble - yet horribly warped due to the aforementioned relationship - ideals.

[Cilia]

[Fordola] didn't want to [fire on Specula Imperatoris], but did it anyway for what she saw to be the greater good. Certainly, her actions were monstrous, but her reasons for doing so were not. "Just following orders" may not be an excuse for wrongdoing, but it doesn't change the fact that the lion's share of the blame lies with the one giving the orders, not the ones pulling the triggers. Zenos is the true monster here.

In the end, what it comes down to is that Fordola placed her (very misguided) ideal above the lives of her own comrades, Ala Mhigan and Garlean alike. "Just following orders" isn't an excuse for anything. If Fordola considered the act too immoral for her ideal, too extreme to go through with, she would not have done so. Zenos gave an order that even the (implicitly Garlean) cannon operator balked at; Fordola chose to obey. She chose to do what she did. Regaining Ala Mhigan "freedom" as an Imperial province (puppet / slave state) was more valuable to Fordola than the lives of her comrades, evidently.

Orders can be disobeyed. The cost may be high, but there is a choice. There is always a choice. The blame lies with Fordola as much as it does Zenos. (Also the nameless cannon operator(s).) She made her choice and now has to live with the consequences, whether those are consequences she wanted or not.

[Belhi]

In Fordola's defence, she acted in the belief that her own people would understand and stand by her discision. The goal she was working towards was one they had all committed to, misguided or no. If she had been able to speak with them at the time they very well might have told her to fire.

[Anonymoose]

Regaining Ala Mhigan "freedom" as an Imperial province (puppet / slave state) was more valuable to Fordola than the lives of her comrades, evidently.

Orders can be disobeyed. The cost may be high, but there is a choice. There is always a choice.

I agree with the first point in light of the circumstances wholly, but is the second entirely true? Multiple times in the story, Garlean officers were personally, independently, unilaterally executed by Zenos immediately after falling from his favor simply to vent his frustrations and serve as an example to others. No paperwork, no trails, no consequences, no nothing. The Skulls weren't even worth anything to Zenos; they weren't his men, just random playthings inherited from the XIVth Legion. He had as much investment in them as Elidibus had in the Warriors of Darkness or the Griffin: not-entirely-useless pawns.

The difference between pulling the trigger and refusing to is what, then?

Pull the Trigger

• Some of the Skulls die.
• The Skulls overall mission that Ala Mhigans will earn respect and freedom after the Empire's inevitable victory endures.
• For most enemies of the Empire, Fordola crosses the point of no return (they'd want her executed)

Refuse the Order

• All of the Skulls die.
• Ala Mhigans look more unreliable and untrustworthy than ever; every sacrifice and misdeed the Skulls endured was for nothing.
• Fordola dies.

Quite the "high cost", isn't it? Either option is total surrender - either to coercion or to oblivion. She chose the one with a "tomorrow" attached to it, and in so doing stepped over the line for the vast majority of people looking for metrics by which to judge her (all but guaranteeing that even if she wasn't killed now by Zenos, she'd just be killed later if the Resistance won). Trite and gauche as it may be, even we (the people accustomed to the laws and standards that make her actions disgust us) have held trails for individuals under less coercion than that.

Some will say she acted under duress (coercion). Some will say she acted out of necessity (her crimes being the lesser of two guaranteed evil outcomes). Some will say that she is ineligible for considerations of duress and necessity because she could have gotten out of this situation before her choices were so severe. Some will say that such exclusion is difficult to define because situations were much different under Gaius and Zenos, arguably a "bait and switch" by fate itself.

On the other hand, "Kill every perceived monster and let the gods sort it out." might satisfy mobs and passions, but it looks pretty bad in the history books. "Who looks worse, Fordola or the people who hanged her so quickly?" could be paper assigned to Erik's great-great-great-grandchild's university students.

[KalinOrthos]

I think it's rather important to note that Fordola is young. Probably early 20s, late teens. Ala Mhigo has been an Imperial province, the seat of power for Eorzean incursion forces for 25 years prior to its liberation. Growing up under the sole of the Garlean boot, all Fordola knows is the might of the empire. She has seen the Resistance broken time and again, watch her kinsman break and despair. That is literally all she knows. Her actions, misguided as they were, were borne of the mentality that, from her view, Ala Mhigan independance is nothing more than a dream at this point, a fairy tale spun by old men with rose-tinted glass who praise the corrupt politicians of the old kingdom. She could not see this liberation happening, and right now, she's probably in her cell, inconsolable and seething at Lyse for dooming her people to the inevitable conflagration the Empire will bring.

[Cilia]

"Liberty or death." A simple creed, and one too few people truly understand the weight of. A game like this can't properly convey it. Yes... disobeying Zenos has a high cost. One's life, very likely. The price of freedom is steep - but is a false freedom bought by killing one's comrades really worth fighting for? Is true freedom bought with one's life, if necessary, not worth fighting for?

If you kill your own comrades fighting for "freedom," who is going to enjoy that freedom? If the people you want to "liberate" reject your ideal, who and what are you really fighting for?

... as for Fordola's youth and unknowing a free Ala Mhigo... just look at Hien. He, too, did not know a free homeland, but he still hoped and believed in and fought for a truly free Doma. Fordola long ago despaired of a truly free Ala Mhigo and, whether it was due to conditioning or not, sold out to the Empire - choosing to shackle Ala Mhigo even tighter to Garlemald instead of believing in a truly free Ala Mhigo.

This goes back into the first bit. Fordola falsely believed that defeating the Empire was impossible, which is why she chose to shackle Ala Mhigo to it. However... remember that nothing is impossible. Nothing. Unless one has foresight, the future remains unknowable. Even back then... hope yet remained.

Fordola had a choice. The cost of disobeying would have been steep - extremely steep - but she had a choice. She chose to do what she did. To believe otherwise is to believe she lacks autonomy. I don't think that's true, existence as a fictional character aside.

[EdwinLi]

-----.

The issue with Justice is that there are many forms of Justice and it is mostly based on the views of the individual. For some they will want Fordola to lose her freedom and have her put into jail the rest of her life. Others may want he to be publicly executed for the deaths she caused. Others may see reason and lighten her sentence to something limited on time such as certain amount of years for public service.