A detailed Reaction to Warrior in SB

[Shinkyo]

it's 3.x all over again

It's not.
3.x had a clear undesired tank that did not mesh well with the content at all.
That is not the case now.

PLD is slightly better but you are not gimping yourself by not bringing one.
All tanks are efficient at clearing the content with only a slight edge to PLD. And in that sense, it is balanced enough. Not perfect, but way better than 3.x.

[ovIm]

It's not.
All tanks are efficient at clearing the content with only a slight edge to PLD. And in that sense, it is balanced enough.

I respectfully disagree here. All 3 tanks perform rather similar in terms of DPS and mitigation (although DRK needs some serious love in that regard so the class is not as dependant on TBN), but only PLD has access to raidwide mitigation tools. This fact alone means that there is, objectively, no reason not to bring a PLD, and that why I say it is not balanced at all. Sure you can clear content with DRK/WAR, but that puts more strain on the healers.

[konpachizaraki]

It's not.
3.x had a clear undesired tank that did not mesh well with the content at all.
That is not the case now.
PLD is slightly better but you are not gimping yourself by not bringing one.
All tanks are efficient at clearing the content with only a slight edge to PLD. And in that sense, it is balanced enough. Not perfect, but way better than 3.x.

PLD isn't "slightly better" than the other 2 tanks they deal as much damage(and sometime even more) than a warrior with better party utility, and they beat dark knight in both dps and utility
it will only only be balanced once a party can perform equally good without needing to choose a specific tanks, which isn't the case at the moment because a party that has a PLD as 1 of the 2 tanks is almost guaranteed to be better than a party that doesn't have them(in situation where both party are equally skilled btw)

[SyzzleSpark]

There is no balance that's the main point here.

Its still all kinds of asinine to say that someone shouldn't get to have an opinion because their opinion might actually be less biased. If you want threads that are just gigantic echo-chambers, reddit is good for that.

[Shinkyo]

Snip

PLD is better, I'm not denying that fact, but it's not to the point where they totally eclipse the other tanks. They do have a guaranteed slot in a raid group but that's more based on their perceived value rather than their actual performance, meaning that it's great to know you have those party mitigation tools available but in reality you don't use them that much.
Swap a PLD for another tank and it isn't gonna make that much of a difference to competent healers. The main noticeable downside to not having a PLD is gonna be Hallowed Ground really.


Currently, DRK is in the worst spot out of the 3 tanks yet there are still plenty of people who raid with them and within very comparable performances.
While not perfect, it's within reasonable variance where none of them is a big outlier like in 3.x.

[Crater]

I respectfully disagree here. All 3 tanks perform rather similar in terms of DPS and mitigation

PLD absolutely does not perform similarly to WAR and DRK in terms of personal mitigation. PLD is incredibly squishy compared to either of those two classes.

Raid mitigation is likewise an extremely situational class perk. Passage of Arms is just straight up not useful in 3/4 fights this raid tier, and would be questionable even on Neo Exdeath if Almagest wasn't 100% designed to cater to PoA. Divine Veil performs a little better since there's no associated DPS loss, but even then you'll struggle to find more than 2-3 situations across all of v1s through v3s where DV accomplishes anything besides making a tick or two of Medica II/AHelios/Whispering Dawn into overheating.

Onslaught is seriously probably a bigger rDPS gain than PLD's "overpowered" party mitigation skills.

[Paiyne]

You can passage of arms for yourself you know, it's better than bulwark it's just guaranteed blocks. So calling it useless is pretty retarded. It could never be outright required because who the hell would design that fight.

You could also use it to save someone on a share damage mechanic if don't need for a specific ability. What I use reprisal for half the time.

[Umbeliel]

PLD absolutely does not perform similarly to WAR and DRK in terms of personal mitigation. PLD is incredibly squishy compared to either of those two classes.

Hey so either I've missed something incredibly big or this is straight up wrong dude and I'd like some elaboration on what led you to this conclusion.

[Capn_Goggles]

snip

PLD might not have WAR levels of mitigation, but it's definitely less squishy than Dark "I have to use stoneskin to eat fluff damage because my mitigation kit doesn't exist" Knight. Blocking is decent passive mitigation, not great, but decent. That sheltron is basically always available when you'd need it is essentially a free 20% damage reduction on any tankbuster you want for a universally positive gain. Intervention is another ability that has zero opportunity cost and is just free mitigation for your MT. Divine veil is also awesome because, again, it's raid-wide mitigation at zero opportunity cost; and while passage of arms is highly situational, it's still more than what WAR or DRK bring to the table (nothing).

The important thing to note here is that paladin's utility isn't really "necessary", but it costs basically nothing and is tacked onto a kit that would be fantastic in its own right.

[ovIm]

PLD absolutely does not perform similarly to WAR and DRK in terms of personal mitigation. PLD is incredibly squishy compared to either of those two classes.

While PLD does not have the same amount of CDs a WAR has, PLD still has a lot more going on than DRK. Shelltron alone is great for tankcrunchers of any kind. The only class that seriously needs some love is DRK, since its currently to dependant on a level 70 skill (and has a half the time useless CD - dark mind).

Raid mitigation is likewise an extremely situational class perk. Passage of Arms is just straight up not useful in 3/4 fights this raid tier, and would be questionable even on Neo Exdeath if Almagest wasn't 100% designed to cater to PoA. Divine Veil performs a little better since there's no associated DPS loss, but even then you'll struggle to find more than 2-3 situations across all of v1s through v3s where DV accomplishes anything besides making a tick or two of Medica II/AHelios/Whispering Dawn into overheating.

Onslaught is seriously probably a bigger rDPS gain than PLD's "overpowered" party mitigation skills.

Im pretty sure that two healers that can dish out a few more stones because of raid mitigation can increase rDPS by more than Onslaught alone can, though I admit I am not really as good in the mathematical theory than others here on the forum. Sure, its all in relation to the skill of the players in the raidgroup, but I like to think that a properly timed DV or PoA can easily help with Roar and Blaze(O1s), Gravitational Wave and Long Drop (O2s) and Queens Waltz and Dimensional Wave in O3s (I admit I am not on O4s yet).
Can you explain what you mean a bit further?