Dear Healers who don't DPS

[Ghishlain]

I automatically discount any statement of opinion by the developers that isn't directly backed up with coding. Aside from ostensibly calculating minimum clear DPS with tank and DPS role efforts exclusively in mind, they've taken no measures to enforce a vision of DPS-less healing; they just don't want to come out and tell players that they need to "git gud" since that is a poor business practice in the context of a semi-casual game.

I fall back to my usual position of "party member doing the bare minimum is a detriment." I'm amazed at the mental gymnastics some people on these forums go through to justify healers ignoring huge chunks of their kits. IMO this incredibly literal interpretation of the Healer role is damaging in that it promotes a sort of entitlement that does nothing to improve anyone's gameplay experience except arguably that of the entitled healer. Some posters go so far as to cry elitism when faced even with reasonable arguments as to why healers should attack when they can, but the idea of "I'm a healer; you should be grateful if I keep you alive and truly blessed if I deign to kill a monster (but I shouldn't have to)" reeks of its own brand of elitism.

Both extreme ends of the equation for the healer DPS debate are its own form of elitism and should be curb stomped into the ground, in my opinion.

My own thoughts about why the issue is so polarizing is because of the way the game is designed, it's entirely possible to be a successful baseline healer with a very low skill level which then in turn leading to a massive skill gap between those who are successful at a base level and those who are essentially 95+ percentile healer DPS. This in turn leads to massively varying opinions about what is "right" when the baseline for success is set at a very low level.

Outside of low ilvl progression, a zero-DPS healer won't cause a run to fail but will instead impede the speed at which success is attained. With that being said, players in general looking to confront EX Primals and Savage raiding should understand what it takes to become more successful and efficient with their kits to reduce progression failures.

I feel it's important to note the difference between DR and Savage level raiding because players looking to find success quickly in Savage raiding will need to have a mindset of continual improvement versus DRs where any Tom, Dick, or Harry will be able to succeed. As such, I also feel its important for people to distinguish between the level of skill required to complete the content and comments made towards those contexts because broad stroking generalizations just continue to stroke the the flames of this polarizing issue.

[Taika]

Both extreme ends of the equation for the healer DPS debate are its own form of elitism and should be curb stomped into the ground, in my opinion.

Really the only "extreme end" in this debate is the people who say healers should not be asked to be do DPS, ever. The so called opposite side is simply asking that healers should be open for DPSing when they have nothing else to do and they're able to do so (when they are comfortable with content, no one is in any danger, and they have plenty of MP). If there are posts asking for something more than this, I of course may have missed them and will gladly have you or others point them out to me.

[MoroMurasaki]

I feel this is a very poor comparison to make because dps does directly help tanks to maintain threat but dps doesn't directly help healers. Yes dps can indirectly help with healing because things die faster, but its relationship with healing isn't as close as it is with tanks. Healers doing dps doesn't make healing numbers pop up elsewhere, tanks doing dps actually adds to their threat generation. The responsibilities of tanks and healers are quite similar in some ways, but the way they perform their roles in this context is far too different for this comparison to make any real sense.

Would you argue that SCH and Noct AST only have to use their direct healing moves then? And WHM should never use Divine Bension. These shields are mitigation, same as healer DPS. I have a hard time separating the two but I do feel that if a DPSing healer and a lazy non-DPSing healer ran the same group through the same dungeon the overall incoming danage in the DPSing healer's group would be considerably less, especially on WHM where an amazing Stun just happens to be built into our AoE DPS.

So where is the line? Do we play to the best intetests of our party and mitigate through shields and DPS or let the damage roll in just because we have the potency to heal it anyways?

[Ghishlain]

Really the only "extreme end" in this debate is the people who say healers should not be asked to be do DPS, ever. The so called opposite side is simply asking that healers should be open for DPSing when they have nothing else to do and they're able to do so (when they are comfortable with content, no one is in any danger, and they have plenty of MP). If there are posts asking for something more than this, I of course may have missed them and will gladly have you or others point them out to me.

This one quote stuck in my mind recently from a separate thread:

You could make damage spells cost no mana, have no cast time, all be oGCD and have a 1 second recast and these healers wouldn't DPS. I recently broke my right wrist (dominant hand) and I stilll DPS and heal in dungeons. It's not a matter of skill. There is something fundamentally off in the heads of these players. I wouldn't bother with them. Avoiding commending them and kick from party whenever possible.

Don't really have time to sift through the 60 pages over multiple threads though, lol.

For me I hate the extremes but I can accept the opinions of the more moderate posters. I do dislike the rhetoric about how there's an expectation for a healer to DPS. I feel the it's more important to encourage healer's to DPS and not force them to DPS. It's a minor semantic, yes, but it's important to me.

[Taika]

This one quote stuck in my mind recently from a separate thread:

That quote was about healers who absolutely refuse to DPS, I don't see how it would be about asking healers for something else than being open to DPSing?

I feel the it's more important to encourage healer's to DPS and not force them to DPS. It's a minor semantic, yes, but it's important to me.

I really don't get this. I expect my healers to DPS (when they can) just like I expect my bards to sing requiem, ranged DPS in general provide MP and TP, melees to goad and so on. All jobs should be expected, not just encouraged, to use their helpful abilities, although it doesn't hurt to present this expectation to them in an encouraging manner.

[Vyriah]

So where is the line? Do we play to the best intetests of our party and mitigate through shields and DPS or let the damage roll in just because we have the potency to heal it anyways?

Yeah right, use those SCH shields in dungeon, they're really so great and mana is for the lazy people anyway.
I'm not sure if can not make point harder than that.

Trying to be "moderate" and all is cool, but what you're doing is monitoring players and asking them to play how you want them to play because they would be lazy, wich is certainly that exact attitude SE want out of its game when they talk about healer not DPSing. And when its come to the point where you're saying "SCH should prevent damage instead of healing them because they can" while this is certainly the worst way of playing it possible currently, we're not talking about the game anymore. We're talking about you wanting to clear dungeon faster and that's your buisness, not every else's.

Actually, playing efficiently is something that you aim yourself, not something you do because some guy you don't know wants you to do it. If you don't want to play with those random guys that don't play like you want to, don't use the DF. There's FC, there's friendlist, there's PF. Get a party of like minded player and play with them. Or is suddenly "using everything available" not a matter anymore ?

[Ghishlain]

That quote was about healers who absolutely refuse to DPS, I don't see how it would be about asking healers for something else than being open to DPSing?

To me, the context of the quote was someone who was willing to boot someone indiscriminately for not DPSing and an extreme solution to a zero-DPS healer, even if there was no discussion made previously. Stating they have something wrong in the head also shows a particular strong distaste for these types of people and just shows me the extreme other end of the spectrum that needs to be nipped in the bud.

I really don't get this. I expect my healers to DPS (when they can) just like I expect my bards to sing requiem, ranged DPS in general provide MP and TP, melees to goad and so on. All jobs should be expected, not just encouraged, to use their helpful abilities, although it doesn't hurt to present this expectation to them in an encouraging manner.

I disagree. There is a difference between clearing content and clearing it more efficiently but one thing remains the same for the two - you're clearing content. A player expecting their peers to play at a specific level different from their own expectations makes me feel those players are feeling entitled to something when they aren't entitled to anything at all.

An individual player can enforce those guidelines in their PF because they can set whatever rules they want to and the other players can decide if they want to join said PF or not. However, going into a randomly matched DR and expecting to players to play at a specific level (whether above or below their current level) is, in my mind, both foolish and arrogant of said player and makes them sound entitled.

[MoroMurasaki]

snipped for length

I enjoy how you only chose to address my closing statement instead of contesting my actual evidence - would my party take less damage with me DPSing or not? I mean we both know the answer you just don't have a rebuttal to that part. In terms of your "make a pf or play with your FC" dig - no. Not that I don't do those things but they are for when you are looking for something outside the norm/specific, if anything healers who don't want to DPS should do that. Maybe they can even offer something to the players who join in exchange for carrying them.

All this silly "you want to control how peple play" argument is also just garbage because you have no idea what I want. I want people to stop being lazy and use their whole kit! Stop giving the rest of us healers bad press because you are standing there doing nothing while your party does the heavy lifting. I want them to do this not because I say so but because they take their heads out of the sand for once and recognize that they are literally a liability in a party.

Playing tanks and DPS now is driving home a point that I have suspected for the past year; healers who don't DPS rarely heal well anyways. It's not a matter of them needing all that time to do an amazing job at their primary function because they tend to be fumbling even that. I had a WHM in Sirensong that I posted about in the "Tales from the Duty Finder" thread in the past few days who not only never applied DoTs but was also forcing the PLD and RDM to heal themselves/the party. These are the healers I see not DPSing. Maybe you are the one shining example of a healer who doesn't DPS but heals well, I don't know.

Also in terms of SCH maybe you know more than I do currently but I do know the MP cost on Adlo got jacked way up so why would you want to prolong a fight when you could run into MP issues when you or the tank run out of cooldowns? That "heal forever" mentality might be okay on WHM but I don't think SCH is in the same place. By using your (comparatively cheaper) DPS abilities how many heal casts are you saving? Or did you just want to Physic for 25 minutes straight through a dungeon?

This has nothing to do with wanting a faster clear on my part. I am annoyed with lazy healers that just stand around because I personally love healing and don't want to have other players seeing us in a negative light. Most people do want a comparatively faster dungeon as well and if I can help give them that then awesome.

At this point the side of the debate that is for healer DPS has presented a ton of reasons why it should be expected but I challenge you guys to come up with something now. None of this stupid "you dont pay my sub" crap - real reasons.

I'll wait.

[Taika]

To me, the context of the quote was someone who was willing to boot someone indiscriminately for not DPSing and an extreme solution to a zero-DPS healer, even if there was no discussion made previously.

If there's a healer (or tank!) who refuses to do any DPS, a BRD who refuses to use any of their support abilities, a BLM who refuses to use their fire spells - after being asked to by their party members, the party has every right to remove the party member who refuses to co-operate. I don't think there's anything extreme about removing a player from a group if the player is refusing to be helpful to their party (I do think the post you quoted was offensively worded though). And surely even you will expect these things from your tanks, BRDs and BLMs (just not from your healers...)?

However, going into a randomly matched DR and expecting to players to play at a specific level (whether above or below their current level) is, in my mind, both foolish and arrogant of said player and makes them sound entitled.

We're not talking about some ridiculously high standard for expectation, though. All that's being asked (and, again, feel free to point out if I seem to be wrong with this) is for party members to try to be active and use all of their helpful abilities instead of refusing to be helpful. What's being asked from healers specifically is that they would try to be as active as their DD and tank team members instead of choosing to stand there doing nothing (or spamming useless abilities = overhealing). There's nothing "entitled" about asking each party member to try and be useful to their team. If anything, refusing to be helpful when you could, for no reason whatsoever other than you don't want to, and asking your party members to work harder than you seems much more "entitled" to me.

[Gunnie]

I constantly see the argument that content isn't designed with healer DPS in mind. However assisting your group to the best of your abilities (this goes for all classes) does smooth out a dungeon/raid/etc. No one's in a rush to get to the end, but actively assisting your group with always casting something beneficial (heals if required, DPS if people don't need healing) seems the best way to do it.

This is in the same camp as NIN's using their Shadewalker, melee DPS in general using Goad on the correct person, bards using their songs correctly. Do what's best for your group.