I hate that BRD is so dependent on DRGs Buffs/Debuff

[HarassMe]

as a DRG main with a SAM sub... it takes FAR less work to get better DPS out of my samurai, than the DRG. People seem to think that Kenki management is what separates a good Sam from a bad, but honestly... even the bad Sams are putting up big numbers and their resource meter isn't constantly ticking down. Its not even really a good comparison... sam is an incredibly forgiving dps job.

[Neela]

It's the fact the BRD (and MCN) is actually reliant on the DRG for full potential. They are in effect tethered to the class. Another BRD or MCN that does have a DRG is just gets 5% more damage. If you do 4k dps without the DRG, that's another 200dps that you're missing out on.

Like imagine of RDM had a fire vulnerability debuff on hitting with Jolt - BLM would then need a RDM present to reach full potential.

If you say they are thetered for full potential, you have to say that Blm/Rdm need a smn for full potential as well. Ever heard someone complaining bout they can't buff themselves to avoid the "need" of a smn buffslave to reach full potential? If I follow your argument every cls need a buffslave cls to reach maximum - so it's not a Brd specific problem. So what's the point in trying to make it a Brd only problem?

[Azerhan]

If you say they are thetered for full potential, you have to say that Blm/Rdm need a smn for full potential as well. Ever heard someone complaining bout they can't buff themselves to avoid the "need" of a smn buffslave to reach full potential? If I follow your argument every cls need a buffslave cls to reach maximum - so it's not a Brd specific problem. So what's the point in trying to make it a Brd only problem?

+1

BRD is a job to help the team. It's normal if they are the last dps, because it's there role. And considering that the job in incomplete because you need another buff from another job is an error, because every job will deals more damage with another job. So with this logique, all job is incomplete...

[HyoMinPark]

+1

BRD is a job to help the team. It's normal if they are the last dps, because it's there role. And considering that the job in incomplete because you need another buff from another job is an error, because every job will deals more damage with another job. So with this logique, all job is incomplete...

It's not that every job is reliant on others for full potential and thus incomplete, therefore there is nothing wrong with BRD/MCH being reliant on DRG. It's that BRD/MCH are the only physical DPS jobs that do not apply their own damage resistance debuff to an enemy. Instead, they have to rely on a DRG if they want the damage increase from Disembowel's piercing resistance down, where as the other physical DPS all apply their respective debuffs as part of their standard rotation.

BRDs may be a support, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are last place in terms of DPS.

If one group has SCH/MNK/NIN/RDM/BRD, and another has WHM/DRG/SAM/BLM/BRD - the former would give you Chain Strat, Brotherhood, Trick Attack and Embolden, while the latter would only give you Disembowel and Battle Litany... and possibly Dragon Sight, although they really shouldn't be giving that to the Bard!

Actually, if the BRD has the highest DPS in the group, or second highest after the DRG, the Dragon Sight tether should most definitely go to the BRD.

[thegreatonemal]

snip

then you realize that anyone using fflogs for those kinds of things already know thats and takes it into account when comparing people on fflogs.

As a drg in 3.x i didn't compare my numbers with drgs who had mch and ninjas in their parties

[Selova]

snip

Not even close to being true. Aside from your small window for LoTD/Nastrond, Dragoon is as faceroll as it was in HW, literally the only change to your rotation is that now you get a instant WT/FnC after you use either. BoTD CD was reduced, it is next to impossible to lose BoTD unless you are going through a 15+ second intermission phase or your tank mid-dungeon goes afk and the only other thing that you even have to manage is using MD after every SSD/Jump, which is really just as easy as hitting 2 Ogcd's every 30/60 seconds. Samurai: You have 2 buffs that you need to track, managing your kenki so that you have enough to kaiten every MS and Higanbana, making sure you have the kenki to use guren on cooldown, proper hagakure and Meiyo Shisui useage, 3 differen't openers depending on your comp, Getting the correct timing down to use Seigen, making sure you aren't overlapping and wasting sens by doing iajutsu's mid-combo. So, I disagree with your "assessment" of samurai playing easier than Dragoon at a optimal level.

[MauvaisOeil]

Not even close to being true. Aside from your small window for LoTD/Nastrond, Dragoon is as faceroll as it was in HW, literally the only change to your rotation is that now you get a instant WT/FnC after you use either. BoTD CD was reduced, it is next to impossible to lose BoTD unless you are going through a 15+ second intermission phase or your tank mid-dungeon goes afk and the only other thing that you even have to manage is using MD after every SSD/Jump, which is really just as easy as hitting 2 Ogcd's every 30/60 seconds. Samurai: You have 2 buffs that you need to track, managing your kenki so that you have enough to kaiten every MS and Higanbana, making sure you have the kenki to use guren on cooldown, proper hagakure and Meiyo Shisui useage, 3 differen't openers depending on your comp, Getting the correct timing down to use Seigen, making sure you aren't overlapping and wasting sens by doing iajutsu's mid-combo. So, I disagree with your "assessment" of samurai playing easier than Dragoon at a optimal level.

Come on. Are there still samurai trying to make people think they have to track their buffs ? Amongst all other dps, the sam has a 3 sen cycle which will naturally flow you throught both buffs and slashing debuff.

Your kenki dumps have such a low cd that the jauge can easily be pooled do keep some burst for incoming party buffs or guren, which is not the case for cooldown based skills where every second of sitting avaliable is a dps loss that have to be known to be fully exploited.

You have mobility, a far less punishing positionnal than any melee, on demand burst with meikyo shisui

And by the way, mid combo iajutsu are a flexibility and not a contraint.

Don't try to make people think sam is a hard to learn class. It's easy and forgiving while pushing high number even if you're bad.

Of course beeing good means you will push higher numbers because your base damage is higher than others, but the skill floor of a sam is quite high, while the skill ceiling isn't high much higher.

A good dragoon will have a hard time reaching an average SAM while beeing destroyed by any donwntime in fights, while sam's ressources never decay overtime, and buffs are easily reapplied with two parts combos.

The sad thing is the sam is the most interesting, yet less punitive, gameplay that SE designed for stormblood, while a lot of other jobs are flawed.

[Lastelli]

Other jobs aren't harder than sam though. What's hard about drg? You literally have 2 5-step fixed combos and you weave stuff between your gcds. Btod management si basically gone in sb and eyes management is pretty straightforward. Mnk has 2 3 step combos that go back-back-?, Flank-flank-?, where the last skill changes depending on demolish left duration and you weave stuff when possible. GL and buffs refresh naturally during these combos. Optimizing mnk is basically "don't use IR before bootshine". Many people think sam is easier because it has a higher dps at any ilvl. But I'm pretty sure that most of them would be totally humiliated by a sam that is actually playing optimally.

[Dzian]

which is not the case for cooldown based skills where every second of sitting avaliable is a dps loss that have to be known to be fully exploited..

In an infinite encounternperhaps but generally speaking This is far from true.

If you take one cool down ability. Let's say kassatsu for a ninja for example has a 2 minute cool down. And then take a fight. V1s for example has a 9minute 40 enrage timer.

Best case scenario is you can do 5 kassatsus in that encounter. If you open with Suiton and hit your first pretty much straight away. You can do 4 more every 2 minutes.

Due to the enrage timer being 9:40 that then means you can delay all ofnthose kassatsu by a combined total of 90 seconds and it will not be a dps loss.

Your second mine might be 3 minutes. Your third another 2 mins 10. Your 4th dead on 2 minutes. And your last 2 mins 15 seconds.

Even with all those delays as long as you can still put 5 of them out before the enrage it's not a dps loss.

If your group was downing that fight in around 7 minutes. Then you can do at most 4 kassatsu And the same principle applies only now you maybe only have 45 seconds to play with but as long as you get 4 in that 7 minutes it's not a dps loss.

[MauvaisOeil]

Its not a matter of hardness, but how you lack ways to react to situations while the sam has the tools to adapt to anything.

When you get bumped as a sam, you just charge back if you gcd is avaliable or if you canno run back before it's up again.
On a dragoon you j... oh sorry jumps are cd tied and tied to your rotation for eyes.

If the boss despawn, only your buff deplete and are tied to no cooldown. Sen and kenki remain. And you can even exploit downtimes with a kenki generator to compensate.
On a drg you loose timer on your botd which will have to be sustained throught a quick aoe combo (loss of dps) or a 5 combo long chain, meaning you cannot get keep botd iif the timer is close to expiration, or at best, you have to throw 2gcd refreshing it before even rebuffing yourself then going throught your debuff/dot combo.

Any time failing to enter lotd is a dps loss, any drop of botd is a dps loss, any hold up of geirskogull because of boss phasing and not wanting to get into lotd for nothing is a dps loss.

Just try yojimbo in kugane castle as a sam and a dragoon and you will tell me your impressions.

I guess the same goes for GL stacks, while tornado kick is a weak compensation for loosing them, any greed resulting in wanting to hit the very last moment can end with an even more punishment.

Sam dps is quite just paused during downtimes just like rdm, but highly dependant jobs to buff sustain aren't.

And that s not even about positionnal.

In an infinite encounternperhaps but generally speaking This is far from true.

If you take one cool down ability. Let's say kassatsu for a ninja for example has a 2 minute cool down. And then take a fight. V1s for example has a 9minute 40 enrage timer.

Best case scenario is you can do 5 kassatsus in that encounter. If you open with Suiton and hit your first pretty much straight away. You can do 4 more every 2 minutes.

Due to the enrage timer being 9:40 that then means you can delay all ofnthose kassatsu by a combined total of 90 seconds and it will not be a dps loss.

Your second mine might be 3 minutes. Your third another 2 mins 10. Your 4th dead on 2 minutes. And your last 2 mins 15 seconds.

Even with all those delays as long as you can still put 5 of them out before the enrage it's not a dps loss.

If your group was downing that fight in around 7 minutes. Then you can do at most 4 kassatsu And the same principle applies only now you maybe only have 45 seconds to play with but as long as you get 4 in that 7 minutes it's not a dps loss.

True but false in that current case.

First : nin was not the point, as they only loose a mudra if they need to refresh their buffsn. Whoses duration is up to 70s which leaves a big margin.
Kassatsu is also used with TA so you can' really delay it except if it means no loss of use neither during a TA.
Plus : nin and mch are quite the downtime heroes, as their burst phase is quite independant from their gauge (not entirely true for mch but FT can cover it) meaning the more downtimes you get, the more time your burst phases will account for total dps.

Second : omega savage are 4 boss and done by a low amount of the total player base. While you probably play with a static and account every burst phase depending of the length of the enrage timer, other don't (including myself, as I don't play games to follow scripts. But that s a personnal way oftm thinking).
Ffxiv vary a big amount of activities including dungeon crawling, where the dragoon is more affected than during raids.

Edit : while it's worth calculating with a 2min cooldown, take instead a 30s one. 9'40 means 20 uses.

If you delay just half of them by one second. Just one. You loose 1 full use. If the boss despawn for 15s and your cd is at 10, you lost half the margin you had.

Now take a 15 s cooldown and math it. Theses calculations works well with long cooldowns because their delay is a low dps loss, or even no loss at all. But short cooldowns are more impacted by delay or downtimes.