SCH adlo and succor

[paoweeotter]

dissipation doesn't remove your fairy gauge stacks btw

[technole]

Except if you'd actually read, I didn't at any point say that SCH was a bad job. In fact I even said it was good, alongside the other two healers.

You've changed your wording that it's the worst of the healers, and that it's only viable. That's a bit of a stretch.

It was already OP since the beginning of the job. A lot of people still think today that Scholar is just a shield healer with a fairy, when it's now the best oGCD healer that contributes the most raid DPS since the balance nerf. It has the most one-buttons for almost every mechanical solution, and can assist any of the other healers seamlessly. It does however have a higher skill ceiling, and to get as-much or better mitigation than a Noct Astro. It is now #2 in MP management with Astro now the last, when it used to be White Mage. So worst and viable is complete non-sense.

[Supersun]

It is now #2 in MP management with Astro now the last, when it used to be White Mage.

...when DPSing.

If Scholar has to start using their GCD heals they leap right into deal last.

Scholar is fine for content with 2 healers since the other healer can make up for Scholar avoiding his GCD heals like the plaque, but though not as frequent, Scholar has some gigantic issues solo healing because of how absurdly high priced his GCD heals. Even outside of solo healing, double Scholar is a thing in matchmaking. Scholar still needs the ability to main heal to some degree in case the situation calls for it, but right now it's very difficult when Scholar is punished so heavily for touching his GCD heals outside of Physic.

[technole]

...when DPSing.

If Scholar has to start using their GCD heals they leap right into deal last.

Scholar is fine for content with 2 healers since the other healer can make up for Scholar avoiding his GCD heals like the plaque, but though not as frequent, Scholar has some gigantic issues solo healing because of how absurdly high priced his GCD heals. Even outside of solo healing, double Scholar is a thing in matchmaking. Scholar still needs the ability to main heal to some degree in case the situation calls for it, but right now it's very difficult when Scholar is punished so heavily for touching his GCD heals outside of Physic.

More like what are you doing that requires so much over-spamming of Adlo/Succor. It's no different if you were to spam Cure II on WHM. The problem is some have not adjusted to the fact that MP management is real and not like the Creator days where SCH got away with minimum PIE builds as-possible.

Even so, as I have mentioned many times around the forum, the job relies on making aggressive use of Aetherflow to stay-afloat along with Lucid because of the quick trait. That encourages one-button heals, which is playing the job at it's potential. If you want to reliably DPS and heal in savage, there is a minimum threshold to meet.

Even in a Double SCH scenario you have enough one-buttons to make that not painful with some coordination, and double Eos is good but too many not-so-good SCHs just think one healer has Eos that a 2nd isn't worth such. Back in ARR and Coil days with no shield removal was the worst, but double Eos did a lot of heavy lifting there too.

[Vyriah]

(...)

AST MP management seem fine.

There's piety absolutly everywhere on late game gear and extended lucid dream generally get you rolling for most of the fight. Starting to get into emergency strategies with SCH is generally way scarier for your mana pool, espacially when doing a lot of miasma 2 weaving (wich is something you want to do if you want your wonderful teamate to notice you and finally tell you want you always wanted to hear : "OMG STOP DPS YOU NOOB UR HEALER NOT DPS").

Also what you say just a "no you" version of what was written before. SCH is used because indo, a skill already powerful, got buffed to absurdity. Its power went up by or fourth and cooldown went down by a third. It's not that SCH have a skill for all situation, it's that SCH got indo every 30 sec. Eos is more of a healer than SCH actually is. And just the fact that we're talking about SCH not even considering Eos as possibility but as SCH basic toolkit show how much there's a problem.

On mitigation matter, I'm not sure how every miss the fact NocAST's AspHelios isn't just stronger than succor : it's on demand. It's a ~7k damage reduction on every one and on every thing, and that's a lot. Your hard cast heal are also better thank to the 15% potency buff for Noc Theme. No instant ? What about it, WHM have a lot of them and earthly star is a strong addition to the fight. Even more, SCH/NocAST arn't even competing each other anymore when you don't use succor, you can just pick both if you that spread addlo and magic defense buff every 2min. HoT arn't as effective as those constently asks you to top every one ASAP with fewer break should make whispering down 35% uptime enough.

But saying it's playable still end in the same conclusion : SCH is a indo with a fairy.
And this isn't what SCH is about, this what players make of it.

[Supersun]

It's no different if you were to spam Cure II on WHM. The problem is some have not adjusted to the fact that MP management is real and not like the Creator days where SCH got away with minimum PIE builds as-possible.

It's absolutely different. Aldo is 50% more MP and recovers 100 potency less.

If you go OOM spamming cure II on a White Mage, a job you yourself said has the best MP management of the 3, how much worse do you think it is on a job that has worse MP management with a spell that costs 50% more and recovers 100 potency less...

I mean we're almost 2 months after the launch of Stormblood. 'Scholars are just used to spamming Aldo with 0 piety builds' is hardly an argument anymore. Of course spamming Aldo is ridiculously less than ideal, but it's necessary in some situations. Expert dungeons are probably the most glaring example. Stupid tanks that don't know how to use cooldowns properly pulling more than they should requires Cure II spam. Though expensive Whm and Ast can handle this, Scholar on the other hand has a MUCH higher chance of OOMing before the fight is over.

Asking for Scholar's GCD heals to not be half the price of raise isn't asking to break the class >.>

[technole]

Spamming Adlo is never warranted, that's horrible advice. There isn't a single situation where you ever need to do that. You can do it to supplement or help where tank cooldowns don't exist, but it's not simply as a re-apply when shields are broken. You'd be OOM even back in ARR or Heavensward if you did the same thing.

If you are talking a dungeon setting even with tanks that forget mitigation cooldowns exists, you should be using Rouse+Whispering Dawn practically on-cooldown every pull, using Lustrate just get to get in safe range as-needed (not this burn all 3 stacks to 100% HP, that's not necessary Embrace can do that). Build the fairy gauge aggressively, and for all mega-pulls you should have enough in the gauge to solely be using Aetherpact while getting DoTs/Bane/AoE damage going to fry the suckers. Your job is to make full use of that gauge, it's mega-potent for any pull. The QoL enhancements make it even more easier to use and if the tank likes to move a bit further away because of AoEs.

Embrace as-a-button (yes you should have this as a spam button), and Physick is your last spam heal if you need it. Like the pull has to be so outrageous that it's going to be ogre if you don't use those two buttons.

I'm sorry, but you can't just justify we need to be able to spam Adlo at 50% cost to keep subpar players alive, the Scholar kit can certainly handle all the mega-pulls possible.

[inhaledcorn]

I'm sorry, but you can't just justify we need to be able to spam Adlo at 50% cost to keep subpar players alive, the Scholar kit can certainly handle all the mega-pulls possible.

WE DON'T WANT TO SPAM THEM. WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO USE THEM WITHOUT THEM TAKING SUCH A HUGE CHUNK OF OUR MP PULL. WE DON'T WANT TO FEEL PUNISHED FOR DOING OUR JOB OF PREPARING FOR INCOMING DAMAGE WITH THE MAIN REASON I'M THERE. With these spells so expensive, two of our trademark spells that we learn so early in our kit are borderline useless because it's not feasible to use. It was never a good idea to spam them, unless you had to because of mechanics, since the healing part of the spell was very small. However, it helped your co-healer with their healing since everyone had more essential HP.

I used to say, "A good SCH helped with WHM's MP management." Our management used to be fantastic, while the WHM tended to struggle. With our shields, a WHM should have needed to use less MP themselves, so that was less healing they had to do. It was still mostly true in HW, only SCHs let even more of the healing bulk fall on the other guy since the DPSing healer meta really took off. However, now, in SB, with Adlo and Succor so expensive and inefficient, we want to avoid those spells like the plague, which means more of the healing bulk falls on WHM and AST. Sure, our healing cooldowns are fantastic, but, if none of them are up, the SCH suffers immensely. You can argue in "not using them badly", but you're also under the assumption that everything is running perfectly and no one messes up. In the speedrunning meta that people worship as the Bible, yeah, SCH is fine. But, in progression? I feel like, "Why am I here when I would have a much easier time on a different job?" At this point, the only reason to have a SCH is because the fairy is still decent and SCH's dps is still pretty good and consistent. However, for the most part, the other two healers feel easier and have a generally larger reward for far less effort.

TL;DR: WE DON'T WANT TO BE BROKEN. WE DON'T WANT TO BE PUNISHED FOR DOING OUR JOBS OF SHIELDING THE PARTY.

[technole]

You are not punished for doing the job correctly, and we aren't talking speed runs. Even in normal prog, some tend to over heal because they aren't aware of damage, or perhaps the unknown. That's okay, you usually will figure out your MP cooldown situation over time. When is Lucid back up, so I just energy drain at this spot and get Aetherflow back on CD right now because there is no mechanic I need this stack or this many.

Like in O3S I'm sure everyone's first thought is to shield everyone for the Folio library mechanic. But you find out the damage is a flat 55% HP and it goes through shields. So you learn you probably shouldn't pre-shield there and could just Indom after the damage hits, and/or use regens along with other healer, etc. Maybe for this upcoming wave, I don't have Whispering Dawn up, I'll just use a Succor. That will heal some damage and the shields will cover the next hitting mechanic.

In a raid setting it's not about what cooldowns you have, but also using the best cooldown for the situation between both healers. Tanks do the same thing, there isn't just one tank immunity in the party, there are two. So tank swapping allows more to be used. Healers do the same in a sense with things like Benediction, ED, Lustrates. Who has something up to cover a buster. If no immunity, obviously the SCH should Adlo the Critical Hits. Tank is going to use Living Dead? The White Mage handles that, no Adlo needed. But once again, you aren't spamming that skill for auto attack damage, you are using Adlo for buster damage or on someone who could be taking more damage than their HP warrants. Regen should be used, whether that is Embrace or AB.

There is also the death weakness changes, people with multiple raises don't require Adlo saves anymore to stay alive since their HP doesn't get to severely low levels for mechanics, can just throw an Excog to get a bigger heal up, or manually heal if-needed.

As for Succor, you do use it quite a bit in Deltascape Savage this tier, but it's so spread out on mechanic usage, and MP economy, that once again you won't be spamming it anywhere. Like O4S ExDeath is about what 12 or so times in a less than 5 minute fight, Neo ExDeath can be 40+ for about 12 minutes.

[inhaledcorn]

I love how you all assume that because I want the mp costs on Adlo and Succor to be reasonable, I clearly don't know how to play SCH, and I should be bowing to you all mighty ones. I wouldn't be so feverently advocating the reduction if I didn't. I don't Adlo Critical Hit because Adlo is freaking expensive and, for the most part, Excog's cooldown is spaced enough that it's up for most Critical Hits. Dimensional Wave? Hey, I have Rouse+Whispering Dawn! Dimensional Wave spam during the final add phase? Rouse+Whispering Dawn+Fey's Covenant+Fey's Illumination with maybe one Succor or two in there. The other healer's got it covered.

You even mention in the last paragraph about "MP economy" and it doesn't cross your mind that, y'know, Adlo and Succor are too costly to use 99% of the time?