Just realized something: FFXIV is a terrible DPS player's DREAM come true...

[Sylvina]

Normally, I'd actually be in agreement with you too. But why are you suddenly equating people advocating for a higher minimum standard to at least use simple logic in attack rotations to 'seizing content not made for [hardcore/raiders]'?

My guess is that he finds the attitude of "Anyone who isn't doing perfectly should be called out and shamed and probably kicked from duty" repulsive as I do and is getting a bit frustrated with it, despite the fact I strive to do as best as possible, I think the people who are raring to call out and shame others for their poor performance are the biggest obstacle to actual community improvement.

Positive reinforcement always works better.

[AlexionSkylark]

My guess is that he finds the attitude of "Anyone who isn't doing perfectly should be called out and shamed and probably kicked from duty" repulsive as I do and is getting a bit frustrated with it, despite the fact I strive to do as best as possible, I think the people who are raring to call out and shame others for their poor performance are the biggest obstacle to actual community improvement.

Positive reinforcement always works better.

Something along those lines.
I'll just add that some people (actually a lot of people) are casual in a level that they do not read websites, do not look up rotation guides, do not know what the stat weights for their class is, do not know and do not read news about the game. They just want to log in, have some fun doing a dungeon, log out, and not give a single second of thought towards the game until they feel like logging in again. And while they are logged in, they want to RELAX mashing some buttons and seeing stuff go down. If they could perform their rotations by pressing a single button successfully, they would. And they would even prefer it that way, to be honest.

And there's nothing wrong with that. This particular content is tuned in a way that it's clearable even by those standards. So THOSE people can also experience the game and have fun with it. By holding those people to a higher standard than they are willing to commit (even that standard being SO minimum and easy FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW), in practice, you're shunning those people from the game. You're sending them away. They will NOT trouble themselves, that's not wh they started playing it in the first place. They'll simply freeze their accounts and go play something else that suits them better.

But that's not what the devs intend. They want their game to be accesible and played by ALL kinds of players, INCLUDING those uber-casual ones. It's hard to please everyone, but they try to achieve that in a way that's INDEED fair to everybody: they provide way for every type of player to enjoy the game. Now, you're the one going in the kindergartener's sandbox and demanding that they try to build castles instead of just lumping sand together in no specific format. Because YOU (you as in everyone trying to apply that logic to roulettes) find lumps of sand boring, but they don't. The valid options here are either resigning to play with the 3-year olds at their pace, or resign to your own sandbox of the bigger kids (going premade). Trying to force the babies to play in the way you find fun is not a valid alternative.

[SaitoHikari]

Very well, then. This thread is starting to parallel an actual in-game scenario: not practical/worth the time to debate, since everyone's pretty much entrenched as usual. I'd hope certain people here don't end up turning around and talking about the content release cycle negatively in turn, though. Because my concern isn't really so much about each person's individual performance, as it is the community being judged as a whole in terms of what the developers look at when it comes to designing new content.

Then again, I suppose the developers don't listen to the NA side for anything beyond cosmetics, regardless. That simply isn't going to change at this rate, unless something happens that directly threatens sub numbers, like cross-world PF being created in response to the mass exodus from smaller servers within the NA datacenters.

(I watched my previous MMO get destroyed when the developers only listened to the hardcore elitist raiders and kept doubling down on it. I feel FFXIV is reaching a tipping point where it's in danger of falling to the complete opposite side of the spectrum. Like it or not, in every MMO, a 'casual' and 'hardcore' community exists. Not addressing the concerns of one side by keeping a certain status quo for too long can result in grave long-term consequences for the community as a whole. And as far as I've observed, the balance has been shifting too far towards 'casual', and the community seems okay with it.

Then again, this probably sounds like terrible incomprehensible rambling at this point, so... *shrugs*)

[AlexionSkylark]

snip

What do you mean, exactly? I don't have anything against the content release cycle. I actually believe it's on point.

And the devs listen to the western side of the playerbase more than you may think. The bump up in difficulty in Gordias, AND the bump DOWN on Midas were actually much more a product of how the western audience reacted to it than the eastern (taking into account # of clears and general response). Yoshi=said so in multiple live letters.

[VargasVermillion]

It's actually a bad players dream come true in general. This game doesn't punish mistakes enough or ask you to go beyond basic understanding save for the hardest content. The issue is the difficulty never scales in this game. It starts easy and gets a little harder until 50 than just sets a basic bar and resets it every expansion so players who never had to improve never do so.

[RichardButte]

Is it really, really too much to ask for DPS players to exercise a little caution in helping runs go a little faster for the tank and healer queuing with you to make the run possible in the first place? At that point, the intention behind the design doesn't matter that much, that's just being rude to the people that are with you. So, to twist your argument a little bit, you are indeed crossing over into other peoples' territory when using duty finder. Chances are, said other people have higher than minimum expectations for you. To expect otherwise is, quite frankly, silly.

Let's also not ignore the fact that slow DPS make that healer and tank take longer to get back into the queue so they can't start a run for the next set of two DPS.

Crappy DPS are also literally screwing over other DPS.

Roulettes were never meant with the midcore and upwards community in mind.

There's nothing "mid" or "hardcore" about not sucking at the role you signed up for.

The entire point of this thread is that healers and tanks don't get to queue up for a dungeon, cause the party to wipe repeatedly, and then say "lol it's just DF guyz! lighten up!" without being kicked.

Can you ACTUALLY not see the hypocrisy in this situation or are you just trolling at this point?

My guess is that he finds the attitude of "Anyone who isn't doing perfectly should be called out and shamed and probably kicked from duty" repulsive as I do and is getting a bit frustrated with it

Doing more damage than at least the tank ≠ "doing perfectly".

Look, no one is holding tanks or healers to world-first savage static standards, but they ARE being held to some standards, which is more than DPS are being held to right now.

As long as DPS players are above the tank and healer, there shouldn't be any grounds for complaint, just like if no one dies, there shouldn't be any grounds for complaint for the healer.

Even a parsing list that shows where people are in damage done without showing actual numbers would be fine for this.

Now, you're the one going in the kindergartener's sandbox and demanding that they try to build castles instead of just lumping sand together in no specific format.

...Except that half the kids are telling the other half of the kids that they do indeed need to build castles while the first half sits there drooling on themselves.

Why is it okay with you that half of these kids get chastised while the other half don't?

[vp_cmc]

I'll just add that some people (actually a lot of people) are casual in a level that they do not read websites, do not look up rotation guides, do not know what the stat weights for their class is, do not know and do not read news about the game. They just want to log in, have some fun doing a dungeon, log out, and not give a single second of thought towards the game until they feel like logging in again. And while they are logged in, they want to RELAX mashing some buttons and seeing stuff go down. If they could perform their rotations by pressing a single button successfully, they would. And they would even prefer it that way, to be honest.

I think, that single player games suite these people needs way much better, than MMORPG. In MMO's I'm not ok with these people fun if they make it at expense of my fun. Never forget that there are (usually) people who play these characters, so maybe 1 person fun is not more important then 3 (or 7) others.

[Zfz]

There was a suggestion somewhere recently about a form of feedback for dps, similar to how rhythm games give the player feedback by accumulating "fever points" and going into "fever mode". You know you're performing properly when you see those "EXCELLENT" prompts and when you go into fever mode.

Something similar can be implemented. Give feedback via the flying text or sound effect (similar to how gathering gets a more pronounced sound effect when getting HQ) when the player is getting their positionals right. Reward individual players with a persistent bonus ("fever mode") throughout the dungeon after completing a certain number of the job's main comboes properly, or after making use of core abilities a number of times. Each time a player complete a duty while in fever mode, a point is awarded towards an achievement that grants a mount or a title.

I think it's pretty much a settled issue that SE does not want the possible abuse that comes with parsers. Instead of looking for ways to call people out, perhaps it's more constructive to look at ways to let people improve naturally by playing the game.

[RichardButte]

I think, that single player games suite these people needs way much better, than MMORPG. In MMO's I'm not ok with these people fun if they make it at expense of my fun. Never forget that there are (usually) people who play these characters, so maybe 1 person fun is not more important then 3 (or 7) others.

This.

Why are DPS players delicate little flowers who deserve to have every allowance made for them, but the healers and tanks who make their dungeon runs possible aren't people but props who are there to help these terrible DPS players have fun...?

[Jijifli]

This.

Why are DPS players delicate little flowers who deserve to have every allowance made for them, but the healers and tanks who make their dungeon runs possible aren't people but props who are there to help these terrible DPS players have fun...?

I remember going into Sirensong Sea (The 61 dungeon) with a Samurai as the other dps, but he was in full 130 gear. He did no damage and died in every single mechanic, such as the stack mechanic, even if everyone was in it with them to split the damage. They clearly went in unprepared and were of very little help, yet the tank and healer in the party proceeded to praise them for their efforts, while ignoring me (on ninja) trying to push through as hard as I can to make up for the lack of help.

I wouldn't be surprised if people play more poorly because they get praise for "effort" during it, but none when they actually do something correct.