Just realized something: FFXIV is a terrible DPS player's DREAM come true...

[AlexionSkylark]

Dummy fights are a terrible metric because it only tells you the minimum you need to do, and it doesn't fight back. You won't be weaving in utility skills in SSS for that reason. Plus, it's completely optional, and it's hidden enough that most players aren't even aware it exists.

What I meant by that is that if you want to improve/train your rotations, you can use SSS for that purpose.
There is no way to get better in a fight other than actually doing it over and over. And if we start shunning people for not having done that, it becomes a chicken and egg issue.

You made many good points in this thread, well said. Somebody in my FC is a busy mother who doesn't have much time to practice and has a lot of distractions, usually playing while a baby is on her lap. All kinds of people play this game, which a dps number doesn't convey. We should be patient and accepting. Like you said, if somebody wants an optimal run, just preform a group. We don't need to harass people who aren't high performers until the game is whittled down to just the hardcore players.

Thank you for this example. That's exactly what I'm thinking about. Some people play with their significant other to spend time having fun with them, even if games are not their thing. Some play while having more important stuff they need to share attention with. Some people are just effing TIRED and want to let some steam off before sleep without having their brains at a high-alert, demanding state.

AND IT SHOULD BE OKAY. The beauty of this game is having content at all levels of difficulty, for all kinds of people. We're talking about roulettes here, not savage/EX content. Leave SOMETHING for the casuals, geez.

Self-improvement shouldn't be treated as "community-whittling" though. It very well can be the most rewarding part of the game's experience, and it ought to be treated as such, rather than as a chore or obligation alone.

Some of those people (I dare to say a lot of them) are plainly NOT INTERESTED in that improvement. Said training needs DISCIPLINE and EFFORT. And god forbid some people to want to treat this game as a fun and relaxing experience, instead of a sport they intend to master. And there's NOTHING wrong with that, regardless of what some of the more elitist players might say. You don't want to play with those people? fine, go do this content with FC mates or put up a well-defined PF. But if you go into random matchmaking, it's like signing a form saying you are willing to play with WHOEVER COMES. You don't get to choose skill level. The community as a whole have no obligation to adapt to the level of performance YOU want. Specially not when you're offered the option of not using random matchmaking.

[silverlunarfox]

The case for parsers really shouldn't be "hey, this makes it easy for me to call people out for poor performance".
it should be "hey this is showing me I'm not even close to what others are doing, I need to up my game"...

Sadly most of the arguments I've seen have been the former.

This. I'd like a personal parser.

To the OP. As a tank I know DPS are under-performing by how long it takes things to die. With the experience of running everything multiple times you get a good feel and gauge on how fast things should be dying.

While I do understand your point on healers and tanks being called out the most for being bad (I'm a heal/tank main and haven't been called out in years), its because their roles are so crucial on the whole party staying alive. I feel like this post is more about salt over that than genuinely finding a way to see how everyone on your team is performing, whether by parser or by some other means. If a dps dies, generally oh well... "REZ" but a healer cannot raise themselves, and if a tank dies well then everything is probably going to hit the fan unless your dps are good at kiting and killing at the same time.

[SaitoHikari]

Again, where is this sense of entitlement coming from??

If a tank goes into a dungeon knowing they won't be able to tank properly, they deserve to get kicked.

If a healer goes into a dungeon knowing they won't be able to heal properly, they deserve to get kicked. (addendum: if a healer goes into a dungeon and doesn't DPS at the same time too)

If a DPS goes into a dungeon knowing they won't be able to DPS properly, then it's okay because we should be supportive because all kinds of people play this game...?

....Huh...?

If you think it's okay to slow down a dungeon run for three strangers who may have wanted to get that dungeon run over with quickly, how can you POSSIBLY think it's NOT okay for those same three strangers to be unhappy with you?

I like how certain people are completely ignoring this point. I wonder why?

Some of those people (I dare to say a lot of them) are plainly NOT INTERESTED in that improvement. Said training needs DISCIPLINE and EFFORT. And god forbid some people to want to treat this game as a fun and relaxing experience, instead of a sport they intend to master. And there's NOTHING wrong with that, regardless of what some of the more elitist players might say. You don't want to play with those people? fine, go do this content with FC mates or put up a well-defined PF. But if you go into random matchmaking, it's like signing a form saying you are willing to play with WHOEVER COMES. You don't get to choose skill level. The community as a whole have no obligation to adapt to the level of performance YOU want. Specially not when you're offered the option of not using random matchmaking.

A question for you here. Why do you equate something as simple as just understanding the basics of your class to 'a sport they intend to master'? I don't think people in this thread are even arguing about a 200-300 DPS difference between DPS players. People just want the minimum standard for DPS players to be raised higher than doing the same damage as the freaking tank. Is using AoE skills during large pulls suddenly considered 'elitist'?

In my opinion, forcing 3+ other people to adapt to you because *selfish reasons* is far more inconsiderate than anything else.

[DGladius]

It's disappointing to see there are many people who have an attitude that shows little respect to other people when they sign up for group content to complete a duty. Random matchmaking can be a very effective way to clearing content if more ppl would care about coming prepared and their performance for the role they signed up.

[silverlunarfox]

It's disappointing to see there are many people who have an attitude that shows little respect to other people when they sign up for group content to complete a duty. Random matchmaking can de a very effective way to clearing content if more ppl would care about coming prepared and their performance for the role they signed up.

But that's why party finder and FC's exist. So you can play with like minded people vs the randoms on DF.

DF will never have people who are prepared. EVER. Because alot of solo and casual players don't know any better and use it to clear content. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm glad its there for those who are generally antisocial or too casual. I have the most fun in those groups typically. But I do appreciate finding a DF group that comes in prepared and ready to knock everything out quickly. But I accept tons of players play this game in all sorts of different ways. I just learned to stop fighting it and adapt....

[loreleidiangelo]

But that's why party finder and FC's exist. So you can play with like minded people vs the randoms on DF.

By that same logic, PF and FCs exist for bads to get carried through content rather than pestering innocent people they get paired with in DF. There's no universal "law" that protects certain types of players who use DF and condemns others. It's just a matchmaking tool, literally. People are allowed to have standards for the performance they're receiving there, just the same as people are allowed to be okay with lower-performing people using it. In the end, majority rules in this regard IMO.

[SaitoHikari]

But that's why party finder and FC's exist. So you can play with like minded people vs the randoms on DF.

DF will never have people who are prepared. EVER. Because alot of solo and casual players don't know any better and use it to clear content. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm glad its there for those who are generally antisocial or too casual. I have the most fun in those groups typically. But I do appreciate finding a DF group that comes in prepared and ready to knock everything out quickly. But I accept tons of players play this game in all sorts of different ways. I just learned to stop fighting it and adapt....

Yeah, I suppose. You see, this is another English community exclusive issue, actually. A quick glance over at the JP community indicates they use raid finder frequently, while no one in NA has the confidence to, since everyone here is convinced that the average skill level of players on our side of the ocean is bad. And I don't blame them for thinking so.

We're pretty much the reason cross-world Party Finder exists. I mean, it's a good addition, but there's absolutely no denying that the major factors leading up to its creation were purely because of the NA datacenters (NA refusing to use raid finder, and the vast majority of raiders transferring off of smaller servers to Gilgamesh in the aftermath of A1S-A4S). This fact should bother people, but I guess it doesn't. Community mentality is pretty different between both communities.

[BlastHardcheese]

I'm not an "optimal dps at all times" kinda person as in I'm not going to beat myself up about screwing up my Enochian and having to recast it or accidently using Snap Punch from the rear. That being said it boggles my mind the amount of dps that flat out don't try.

The parsers for persecution thing I don't see being a massive problem because, gear aside, if you actually take the time to read your skills and actually try to play your job you'll do adequate dps. Then it just becomes the game of looking at the other MNK that's beating your meter and try and figure out what they're doing.

If someone trashes you rather than offering suggestions for your adequate dps outside Savage or cutting edge stuff they're douche canoes and are best avoided anyway.

[AlexionSkylark]

A question for you here. Why do you equate something as simple as just understanding the basics of your class to 'a sport they intend to master'? I don't think people in this thread are even arguing about a 200-300 DPS difference between DPS players. People just want the minimum standard for DPS players to be raised higher than doing the same damage as the freaking tank. Is using AoE skills during large pulls suddenly considered 'elitist'?

In my opinion, forcing 3+ other people to adapt to you because *selfish reasons* is far more inconsiderate than anything else.

The matter is to what kind of player each content is catered to, per DESIGN.

Roulettes were never meant with the midcore and upwards community in mind. When you queue in random DF, YOU are actually CROSSING OVER to THEIR territory. And the game offers you some tomes and gil as a REWARD for BEING THERE TO HELP THEM.
And IF by any chance you have an utter need of farming tomes as fast as possible, the game DOES offer you the option of forming a pemade party and go farm your heart's content.

Now, what you people advocate is a SEIZING of a content that was NOT made for you in favor of your mouse wheel of getting the best equipment possible in the shortest ammount of time. If you were talking about people who pay for being carried sneaking in "farm / no bonus" PF groups, I'd be COMPLETELY by your side in this discussion. But this is the other way around.

[SaitoHikari]

-snip-

Normally, I'd actually be in agreement with you too. But why are you suddenly equating people advocating for a higher minimum standard to at least use simple logic in attack rotations to 'seizing content not made for [hardcore/raiders]'? This isn't some unreasonable demand to look up some raiding rotation guide, the main issue is DPS that won't even do something as simple as using AoE in a multiple-mob pull.

Is it really, really too much to ask for DPS players to exercise a little caution in helping runs go a little faster for the tank and healer queuing with you to make the run possible in the first place? At that point, the intention behind the design doesn't matter that much, that's just being rude to the people that are with you. So, to twist your argument a little bit, you are indeed crossing over into other peoples' territory when using duty finder. Chances are, said other people have higher than minimum expectations for you. To expect otherwise is, quite frankly, silly.