Blood Price feels underwhemling

[WhyAmIHere]

The biggest issue is that it's nearly useless in single target. It really needs something along the lines of reducing the damage penalty of tank stance, and/or lifting the MP regen penalty when it's active, in order to ever justify using Delirium on it. Even there, forcing the player to stay in tank stance for 30 seconds just to get the full effect is a pretty tall order.

Correct me if my math is wrong, but assuming server tics with average ping, that'd be 30s of a 20% damage boost every 2min, assuming delirium is only ever used to boost BP, correct?
Also, and this is new to me, but BP reduces innate MP regen?

[Drkdays]

Souleater combo is everything now. Bloodprice is only really effective for pulls with lots of little adds where you can reliably use it with Dark Arts plus the aoe skill for self-heals. I agree, it could use a boost against single opponents like a boss.

[Tegernako]

You mean like Storm's Eye?

Storms eye can drop off thank you very much. And it's a three step combo that lasts for 30 seconds.

DRK can always have darkside active, even when pulling unlike any other tank.

[Accelerating]

Don't think BP will ever really be worth it, the Grit penalty is just too high.

[Lyth]

...

Blood Price does not lift the MP regen penalty at the moment.

Blood Price presently gives you 120 MP (0.05 DA) and 1 Blood per hit. As long as you're in combat, you also gain Blood at a flat rate of 4 per server tick, giving you about 20 blood. I think the idea is that in single target, most of your gains come from the flat rate, and in AoE, you see very marginal gains over the flat rate such that you don't immediately cap your resources. The flat rate doesn't do anything for MP however, which is why they were forced to increase the MP gain of Syphon in Grit to give you a more reliable MP source.

With Darkside off, you regain 568 MP (0.24 DA) per tick. Removing the MP regen penalty with Blood Price active would effectively give you a flat MP gain to go with the blood gain. You'd then gain both MP and Blood at a roughly flat rate in single target, and have marginal increases in the rate gain of both as you add in more mobs. As a comparison to BW, with this approach you would generate 1.2 DA and 20 blood outside of ticks with BP, in contrast to BW's 2.4 DA and 36 blood. You'd be in a pretty good place to have them both get the same delirium extension at that point, and make them interchangeable on swapping.

As far as the damage penalty goes, a partial reduction is fine. Blood Price wasn't originally designed to be Blood Weapon's Grit counterpart, so it has to provide some sort of damage value to the player if you want to justify extending it with Delirium.

The reason for all of this is Delirium. Delirium just barely breaks even if you don't factor in the extension to Blood Weapon/Blood Price (it's about a 3 potency gain, but that changes each patch), and this is supposed to be our big two minute cooldown. If you decide to use it on Blood Price, it forces you to sit in Grit for 30 seconds just to gain 20 extra blood. No thanks. It would be acceptable if you at least switched between the Blood Price/Weapon effects when you change stance, but that's only possible if they both provide the same duration extension (i.e. they both confer similar benefit).

...

First rule of WAR: Don't let Maim/Storm's Eye fall off. That hasn't changed since ARR. There's no point trying to improve anything else if you're losing those buffs.

Darkside costs you 4.73 DA per minute to maintain. If you die, it turns off, locking you out of most of your skills, and you have to turn it back on for an additional 0.25 DA. Either way, you're going to see nearly 100% uptime on both of these buffs when the two jobs are played properly.

[Chrono_Rising]

Storms eye can drop off thank you very much. And it's a three step combo that lasts for 30 seconds.

DRK can always have darkside active, even when pulling unlike any other tank.

Yes, it can fall off, but baring large gaps with nothing to attack I believe it is unlikely to actually fall off, and points to rotation issues if it does.

Dark knight likely is able to pull with darkside active because it does not have oGCD enmity moves which are part of its dps rotation, basically it is front loading your aggro. This is in contrast to paladin and warrior who both have oGCD enmity boosting moves.

[RaizeGraymalkin]

The MP cost exists because DRK has something no other tank has, a 100% uptime 20% damage buff. It's a tradeoff.

Except you can have Darkside active, without Grit. This argument makes no sense. It's clunky as hell and doesn't belong.

Storms eye can drop off thank you very much. And it's a three step combo that lasts for 30 seconds.

DRK can always have darkside active, even when pulling unlike any other tank.

Yeah it can drop off...except most Warriors are going to be on top of that shit and make sure it doesn't so that argument is pretty weak.

[Phoenicia]

Most of this is historically inaccurate. You didn't take DRK into raid in HW because of mitigation. You took it because WAR/DRK offered higher raid dps than WAR/PLD or DRK/PLD. You'd still generally take it into a fight where DRK was at a mitigation disadvantage (i.e. any physical fight), as long as you could compensate with smart use of defensive cooldowns, because it offered higher raid dps than PLD. The exception was on fights like A7S prog, where PLD's defensive advantages and the fact that LD is a liability in that fight tipped the balance in favour of PLD/WAR.

I don't know what you mean by "inaccurate" as that's literally what I said in my post:

...But because of the massive DPS it gained from nigh infinite MP from BP + BW access along Reprisal and Low Blows procs which DRK completely loses access to in the OT position.

The mitigation part was mentioned because a lot of people have false understanding on how tanks' mitigation works.

Unless you're talking about Shield Swipe being a 3.5 PPM, yes, I was wrong, it's 7 as the CD is 15s, not 30s.

The point of my post is that SE is trying to shift away from tanks gaining DPS just by getting hit, which would encourage certain tanks to want to MT in DPS stance just because it's more DPS even when it's detrimental to the group.... Exactly like how DRK was in HW. You drop Grit because it's bad, you have excess MP from BP + BW which meant more DAs to spend on everything.

I could be slightly off with numbers and I didn't go into the detail you went in with TBN because it's not the topic of this thread. I know proper usage of TBN "can" net you damage gain (or loss, yes I know). What is "proper" usage is not the scope of this topic. But the point, again, is that TBN is not there so you can just get more DPS and as such you stand in AoE and pop it even as OT because you get more DPS by getting hit, which goes with the whole philosophy of none of the three tanks gains DPS by taking hits all the time.

~ Phoenicia ~

[Chrono_Rising]

Blood Price is extremely underwhelming, but if we are locked into the current blood/mana gains then I see no real reason it needs to be locked behind grit. Freeing this ability from grit would make it at least some what powerful in that it could be extended with blood weapon and delirium. Given the minimal returns on single target bosses I don't see this as being op, and when pulling huge mobs you'll be in grit anyway and won't have access to both.

[DWolfwood]

I think they should first just remove the restriction of needing to be in Grit to use. While I know this contradicts their whole attempt to force us into tank stance, their attempts simply aren't making any difference. It's even more important than ever to tank without tank stance, and DRK is simply the worst at it. It shouldn't force DRK into the MT position alone, but then again who knows. Perhaps if they nerfed it and made it the same CD as Bloodweapon, we'd get a buff for DRK to compensate, which I would be okay with.

I think adding more Bloodgauge accumulation would be a good solution lorewise too, but I'm not gonna ask for too much here, less they just dismiss us entirely, like they seem to be okay with.

snip

Also, hey Phoenicia, long time no see lol.