[SPOILERS] Stormblood Ending

[Dualgunner]

I'm not even sure I would use the Zodiac Brave storyline as an example of anything. The Relic/Anima quests seem to be written in a way that completely detached from the actual plot, the story surrounding it is just a series of excuses for the reasons you are being asked to grind excessively.

The canon of the quests is dubious when often we wind up killing the same boss monster multiple times (especially in the braves books, I think we kill the siren like three times? And copperhell shows up twice as well).

[Kallera]

Well that just kind of comes with the nature of how the linear nature of FFXIV story happens to work. They give dialogue options in that direction, an illusion of the choice since if your not going to engage in the war there would really be no point in playing the game. It's just mostly there to give a minor add on to the story rather then being an actual choice.

Which kind of annoys me, but that is another thing entirely.

I don't really see them as a hero, not because of the opposition, but simply all the things they've done suggest something that cannot and should not last. Much like the gods they have slain and institutions they've brought down, something can and should dethrone the Warrior of Light. The cycles of calamities seem to suggest that that is the case, as said beings eventually vanish from history, their ends a mystery.

[Theodric]

At the end of the day, the war between Eorzea and Garlemald is far more complicated than many here are willing to admit. Garlemald has its reasons for fighting, Eorzea has its reasons for fighting. Yet both sides are playing into the hands of the Ascians and Elidibus - so at some point they will need to put aside their differences and focus on the greater threat. Eorzea does not deserve to survive at the cost of Garlemald, either since the Garlean Empire is the far bigger entity and as such if it is destroyed or dismantled far more lives will be lost and/or ruined than if Eorzea is wiped off of the map. Then again, it isn't particularly compelling for the Warrior of Light and his rag tag band of allies to be able to accomplish such a feat to begin with, especially since it forces the opposition to be rendered toothless and/or incompetent to pave the way.

-snip-

Oh, definitely. I think the Scions as a whole rather than just the Warrior of Light need to be knocked down a few pegs. At this point pretty much all of the protagonists have become incredibly arrogant. Even after being beaten by Zenos twice they embraced such an attitude - and with only two minor characters dying the stakes never truly felt very high to begin with. I will be immensely disappointed if 5.0 involves barging into Garlemald, killing countless Garleans and barely anybody of note on the Warrior of Light's side ends up dying. Luckily in 4.0 some of the antagonists survived, too, so that does give me hope that the story won't be so one sided moving forward. Yet if they just get 'redeemed' in such a way that they're made to turn against Garlemald then they may as well have been killed off after all.

[Remedi]

How so?

His absence from the shades summoned by myste is fishy, I mean, I can understand the summoning of Livia because she was quite active in her role, but Rythatyn? we barely met him, also why summoning Ilberd with the 2? Wouldn't be Gaius be more reasonable? Something is not quite right

[Cilia]

exactly Theodric to many paint the wol as good when that was never the case the wol has done some truely aweful things lets see another person who went around stuffing souls into their sword ... oh wait wow's lich king well he was totally a good guy right

As for not for glory when was liberating cities our job we're primal hunters leave the crap to the grand companies but apperently without the warrior of light the grand companies are so incomptent that their barely better then the resistence how are this people not conqurered yet ... the scions are awefully quick to voluenter while supposely being neutral

OK, point given - the Warrior of Light may have murdered a number of Imperial squatters. Don't forget those same Imperials would have killed you on sight - and still will, if you're below Lv60 or so!

The Lich King and the Warrior of Light's motivations are very different, and while we did maybe possibly do that one shady thing we've done a lot of good for a lot of people. The Lich King cannot say the same.

The job of the Scions is to ensure the future of Eorzea - killing primals is just the Warrior of Light's specialty thanks to the Echo. The Empire has repeatedly shown itself to be a danger to the future (and indeed, very existence) of Eorzea. Therefore, the Scions going against the Empire as part of a preemptive counter assault is not "not our job." We're also a provisional member of one of the three Grand Companies, so there's that.

...

While I agree that Eorzea and the Empire should put aside their differences and stand together against the cosmic evil that is the Ascians... we can't exactly do that if the Empire continues to engage in unprovoked aggression. If it was really interested in dealing with the Ascians and their machinations, Varis wouldn't be lending his ear to Elidibus - he'd be talking to the Grand Company leaders to try and discuss a way of putting an end to this that's beneficial to everyone (or at least trying to reach some kind of compromise).

As it is, the Empire is actually slowing us down from dealing with the Ascians by distracting us with wars. It is also throwing soldiers at us despite knowing we will kill them in self-defense instead of issuing a "flee on sight" order in regards to us and halting its aggressive wars of conquest that run on faulty reasoning to justify them.

... wouldn't that make more sense?

[Theodric]

I suppose the points that work in favour of Gaius' survival at the moment include:

- The fact that we did not see him die onscreen. He's believed to have perished in the explosion that wiped out much of The Praetorium.
- If he survived, he would no doubt be severely injured and require time to recover. Furthermore he is both an enemy of Garlemald and the Eorzean Alliance so laying low/biding time would be a wise strategy.
- We do not know what he looks like beneath his armour.
- Elidibus has taken on the appearance of someone that has unnerved and/or offended Varis. It might be Gaius.
- The DRK 60-70 quest chain, obviously.

[Belhi]

I just finished the MSQ yesterday (I spend too much time getting distracted by class questlines) so I am still mulling over things. Overall I enjoyed it a lot but there are so much stuff I am now curious about or that stood out in an interesting way:

- Varis seems hardly phased over loosing Doma or Ala Mhigo or his son. Pretty cold. That said, I do think it is possible that we might end up working with him but its hard to say. My guess is Elidibus is using Regula's body. Ascians can use corpses. Only greater Ascians can possess the living through. To stun Varis in such a way I expect it has to be someone Varis would actually care about and Regula would be an obvious option.

- The Resonant has some pretty major implications for the Echo. Just goes to show how little we actually understand one of the WoL's core gifts. I wonder if this might have some tie to Fordola. She might end up with more than she bargained for with her artificial echo.

- The Empire was portrayed in a much darker light than I expected. We got a lot of horrific stuff and not much benevolent. Even the Skulls were treated with discrimination by the majority of Garleans. The whole human experimentation was pretty dark too. Garleans treated the people in Doma and Ala Mhigo way worse than the poor in the rest of Eorzea have it. It would be curious to see more examples of more longer term held provinces. Is the cruelty part of garlemald's method of assimilating new provinces? Beating them till they expect cruelty then offering them respite? That would be probably pretty effective from a physiological point of view. The one Garlean officer we do get to really talk to in a side quest makes a comment on how different the conditions are in different provinces, making it seem very much like Ala Mhigo and Doma, while not outliers, aren't necessarily universal examples of Garlean rule.

- Its worth noting, the conscripted nature of many of the Garlean soldiers is brought up several times. It is why Alphinaud seeks to convince the Lupin to stand down in Ala Mhigo. It is said several times though, that as unsavoury as it is to kill someone who had no choice in being there, to hesitate or hold back would likely just mean getting killed. The Alliance doesn't execute Garlean POW though to be fair we aren't entirely sure what they do do. Considering that Kann-e-Seena would have a say in the matter though, and considering she spent time and energy healing Garlean soldiers in the wake of the Calamity, I suspect she would not be in favour of cruel treatment.

- There are so many things I want to know more about which we wondered by in this expansion. Who built the structures in the Azim Steppes? Who are the gods the Mol listen to? Some of that guidance seemed a little to accurate to just be some random, empty religious talk. What is that tower in the Ruby Sea. Getting close made me think it almost looks high teck. And Allagan space elevator? What the hell is Nyunkrepf's ship doing in the peaks of Ala Mhigo when Sharlayan is literally on the opposite side of Eorzea. What are the ruins at the bottom of the Lochs? And from the Warrior questline, who is Keresh?

- I found the SAM questline an interesting counterpoint to the MSQ. In the MSQ you are violently liberating a country. In the SAM questline you are stopping such a uprising. The interesting difference seems to be that in one case your fighting to give people a safer, more prosperous life, while in the other your stopping a man seeking to start a brutal war for the sake of tearing down the establishment with the harm to the innocent being simple considered collateral damage.

So much to chew on.

[TinyRedLeaf]

^ Thanks for effectively "re-booting" the thread.

I've also been mulling over several plot points from Stormblood, but haven't bothered to post them here as it was quite apparent that the discussion has long since gone in a different direction.

More to come soon.

But just a quick point about your observations about the Empire: Many of us have already noted that the story highlighted at least one example of a sympathetic Garlean officer, so despite all the cruelty we've been shown, it's clear that not every Garlean, especially the conscripted soldiers, was bad to the bone.

I've also got a theory about the story of the Dawn Father and Dusk Mother, but haven't quite got around to articulating it. More on this later.

[Cilia]

---

-Varis was exceptionally cold when faced with the loss of his son, but he acknowledged that Zenos was a monster. Even so, one would hope he would have some affection... but nope. Many take this as a sign of him having standards and it is... but at the same time it's also showing him to be heartless. As to who Elidibus is possessing my current bet is on Gaius or Regula, but there's still the possibility of it being someone new.

-I'm expecting the Resonant Echo to have some long-term side effects that aren't so pleasant.

-Part of the reason for the Empire's cruel treatment of the provinces was because Zenos wanted to enrage them into rebellion so he could have a fight. That said the treatment the Domans and Ala Mhigans received could have been the same as they've always gotten, but it could not have been as well. Either way their lives don't seem to have been improved - all of the able-bodied villagers from Coldhearth were conscripted, for instance, and there's no magitek improvements anywhere in either Gyr Abania or Yanxia except the Daiyu Moon Gates being fitted with barriers (which doesn't help the citizens in any way). It's said some provinces aren't treated as horribly, but in context that doesn't amount to much of anything.

-While it is tragic to have to fight forced conscripts, when it's kill or be killed we don't have many options. That said the Alliance is not known to execute Garlean POWs... Baut, the town magistrate of Ala Ghiri is actually pardoned for being genuinely benevolent and cooperative, and we personally helped a Garlean soldier that was wounded when Fordola fired on Specula Imperatoris. We also know that one of Kan-E-Senna's personal guards was an Imperial legionnaire, and she also healed Garlean soldiers in the wake of the Calamity. To our knowledge, the Eorzeans treat Garlean POWs humanely.

-Heaven-on-High is speculated to be the new "Deep" Dungeon; beyond that there is no information on it.

EDIT

His absence from the shades summoned by myste is fishy, I mean, I can understand the summoning of Livia because she was quite active in her role, but Rythatyn? we barely met him, also why summoning Ilberd with the 2? Wouldn't be Gaius be more reasonable? Something is not quite right

It's... complicated. There Myste was trying to crush you into inaction through guilt so you would submit to his judgment. All of the shades he summoned were people we sympathized with on some level but ultimately ended up killing out of necessity or, in the Warriors of Darkness' case, going against them despite their noble motive.

Rhitahtyn was an Imperial sellout, but he was honorable almost to a fault.
Livia was a broken war orphan. (Still, after the Waking Sands...)
Ilberd was a fanatical but desperate refugee trying to reclaim his homeland. (Either that or his manifestation there was a representation of your guilt in letting "The Parting Glass" happen - specifically Raubahn losing his arm to the man.)
The Heavens' Ward may have been individually virtuous or not, but by the time we meet them it's heavily implied they've all been "blessed" (tempered) by Thordan, which is why they have access to their demi-Primal forms. Unfortunately we had to stop him from dragging Ishgard into a ceaseless war, and that meant going through the Heavens' Ward in the process.
The Warriors of Darkness sacrificed everything to try and save their home world, but we had to go against them to save ours from catastrophe.

Gaius? I guess we didn't sympathize with him too much or feel guilty about his death. I mean, everything that happened with the Imperials in 2.0 - the Waking Sands incident, Ultima Weapon, Operation Archon - all of it is on his shoulders... if he had just stood down, none of it would have happened. Instead Gaius refused to let go of his obsessive desire to conquer Eorzea, leading to... well. We also didn't even kill him - he was stuck in the Praetorium as it exploded all around him, and we had no time to save him.

I'd also like to point out that while the phantoms summoned by Myste were all of dead people, theoretically they don't have to be dead. They're based on memories, which is why Ser Ignasse is the kind and gentle Ser that Millie remembered but a fierce enemy when summoned by our own memories. Theoretically the person doesn't have to be dead. Theoretically.

[Belhi]

Yeah the Resonant is likely to have side effects. To be honest the Garleans were far darker than I expected this expansion and not only in their treatment of the Ala Mhigans and Domans, which in itself was really, really bad. They were embracing the heritage of the Allagans a bit too eagerly. Human experimentation and testing chemical weapons on people. I wouldn't be surprised if we have a HM for Doma Castle where we go down into the flooded labs where the Garleans were experimenting on Human/Magiteck hybrids.

As for life before the conquest of Doma by the Garleans, that isn't really clear. Yosetsu's life story played out after the Garleans took over. Her hatred of the Domans is that they all let it happen. They were all fine with it. Its all good and well for people to cry out about liberty and justice but many of those people did nothing and just looked away when she was thrown into the pit as a child. From her perspective to talk about Justice is the talk of hypocrites. That's not to say what she did was ok or that she should have been aloud to do it. I am not even sure how they could effectively redeem someone both so reviled and so broken inside. It does however throw context to her hatred that makes it more understandable. It is ironic and possibly a result of her upbringing under Garlean rule but never once does she direct her hatred towards Garlemald. There are several times we see people raised under Garlean rule who seem to take Garlemald as just an unassailable truth.

All that said, we currently have a pretty bias image of Garlemald. We cant be certain that all provinces are as bad and we have dialog that suggests otherwise. I have a feeling it depends a great deal on who governs a particular province. I did consider this method of treatment to be a way of 'breaking in' new conquered territories. Brutal and cruel but effective. If you have gotten people used to living in misery and without hope and then offer them succor, even if you are the source of their previous suffering that hope will trigger a sense of gratitude. Zenos certainly seemed incline to try and drive the people to rebellion but the whole thing started with Gaius. He might have ordered the Black Rose to be destroyed but it was still created under his watch. Gaius though did seem to have a plan to eventually integrate Ala Mhigo into the culture of the empire.

That said guys, I don't think Gaius is coming back. I think it is mainly just wishful thinking.

I do think we will move in the direction of Garlemald for next expansion and I don't think it will simply be as enemies. In the short term however I think we will be dealing with the two liberated nations re establishing themselves and exploring the implications of the Garlean research into the echo. If being a Resonant has side effects I wouldn't be surprised if we find ourselves trying to aid Fordola at some point when those side effects kick in. After all, with something like this they will probably look to Shalayan scholars for advice.

On a side note I am more inclined to think the Au Ra may have a connection to Tiamat and Bahamut again. After all though they made the Au Ra to fight each other, they also ended up lovers and left their children. We have ruins, legends and glowy sacred sites, some pretty decent magics and a war that drove the Rean from the Steppes, all we don't know about and which are not gone into detail. Still, dusk and dawn wyrm, dusk mother and dawn father, enemies then lovers.... Au Ra might end up being Dragon people after all. Its also worth noting we have a story that indicates Au Ra can breed with Hyur too. Real world genetics might not apply but its interesting how the differing spoken races are so genetically compatible.

On another side note since we are mentioning Class quests a bit, I did really like how many of the Class threads picked up stuff established earlier. For example, the Miner quest have you work with the guys in the goblin masks you saw recruiting engineers next to Idlyshire's Aetheryte in 3.X.

I got so many questions now and I haven't even gotten to the EX dungeons or Omega. I am going to need to get a notepad to record them. I think we need another lorebook now guys....