[SPOILERS] Stormblood Ending

[Remedi]

Problem is we are not helping, as the warrior of darkness have shown us we are playing right in the ascians plan, they summon a primal, we kill it, they summon a stronger one, we kill, repeat till they'll turn to zodiark.
Misguided as they are Garleans are searching for a way to fix this problem and as pointed out since they are the cause, rightly so
Now I'm not saying they are benevolent or the best thing ever, I'm just saying that if we take in consideration the larger picture, operation archon was a disaster for ala mhigo, as we traded Gaius for a monster, whose objectives were not the good of anyone but himself and his wish of fullfillment trough battle

[Cilia]

On Yotsuyu, I'm not saying I don't understand her reasoning. It's actually simple when you break it down: "My family abused me, I was married off to a husband who beat me, I was sold to a brothel to pay his debts after he died. Nobody helped me through all of it. Therefore, the country has failed me; I am therefore justified in doing whatever I want to get vengeance on Doma as a nation. I find pleasure in the suffering and death of its citizens, so that is what I will do."

The problem is: who or what is to blame? It's not one single thing that failed here. It's a complex blend of Doman (collectivist) culture, Yotsuyu's family being truly awful people, and her own interpretation of what her abuse meant. Her family being terrible speaks for itself - there are always bad apples. Doma, largely a Japan analogue, is most likely a collectivist culture - that is to say it, as a culture, prioritizes the collective good and social harmony over individual happiness. Yotsuyu being unable to get help is a negative consequence of such a social structure - her family denied her and disallowed her from seeking outside help because it would upset social harmony. (The collectivist culture angle has some basis in-game: a questline in Yanxia has you helping a lupin youth try and find what he can do to help the community, not what he wants to do with his life.) Finally there's Yotsuyu's interpretation of what her abuse meant, which is something beyond anyone's control but her own. Yotsuyu's abuse doesn't mean anything but that she was abused by her family - everything else is projected onto it or interpreted from it by Yotsuyu herself.

As long as that collectivist "don't upset social harmony" attitude remains intact, cases like Yotsuyu's will remain endemic to Doma. Hien will likely try and change it, but that cannot happen overnight, and there will never be a guarantee that such crimes are stamped out for good unless you create a police state.

I'm not saying anyone is excusing or justifying Yotsuyu's actions. I'm just saying that Yotsuyu's own nature can account for some small part of it, as well as Doma's culture and (chiefly) her family just being douchebags. It's just very hard to sympathize with her in light of the torture and murder of innocent people for sadistic pleasure. I mean, you can even sympathize with Zenos if you break it down enough... and paint it just right...

Anyway, I've beat on that dead horse more than long enough.

We should, our actions not only made the primals threat worse, but also led to Zenos becoming the new ala mhigan vice-roy in a sense we are responsible for the worsening conditions of ala mhigo, also I'm not sure they are simple shades, Sid's mentor did show some extent of sense of self, also no I'm not buiyng that we felt bad for Rhitatyn, we only met once and had few words to spare, nor I think we felt guilt for Livia or Ilberd

We made our choice and live with the consequences. Not defending Eorzea would have been the greater evil, and we could not have predicted an iron-fisted tyrant like Zenos being made viceroy of Ala Mhigo after Gaius' death. The primals coming back stronger than before is also something we did not anticipate, and we dealt with them in a swift manner.

Ser Ompagne's shade was self-aware because he was constructed from Sidurgu's memories, who was fully aware that Myste's shades were just simulacra based on memories. I don't see the need to keep arguing about the others - they were there because their memory was painful for whatever reason (Rhitahtyn was the first major Imperial we killed, Livia was responsible for the Waking Sands raid, Ilberd... well, Ul'dah and Baelsar's Wall) and Myste was trying to get us to submit. Gaius not being in the lineup... doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[Belhi]

The WoL can not (yet) see the future and to always hesitate over what the consequences of your actions might be can lead to never doing anything at all. Sure there are going to be negative consequences to what the WoL does but part of the WoL's story is owning those consequences I feel. You will never have a decision without any drawbacks. In the end you have to pick the best course cause often all you have to work with is a murky mess.

The Garlean's goals have some merit. However their methods aren't acceptable, particularly since they are built on unethical or high risk practices, and fuelled by Garlean hubris. Frankly in their attempts to deal with the problem that overconfidence has made the situation far worse. Alphinaud even said as much to the Emperor in HW.

[Theodric]

Gaius not being in the lineup... doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Well, he's immensely popular as a character so if nothing else there's always going to be people calling for or at least hoping for his return. It is strange that he doesn't show up in either the DRK quest chain or POTD despite his major comrades being accounted for in both. With, of course, the exception of Nero who we already know is alive and well.

I do like Gaius but I found myself becoming a bigger fan of Regula - though the dream of working alongside him was provided and then immediately stripped away. He's obviously dead after what happened but I do hope we see his sacrifice acknowledged and addressed in regards to the MSQ's and any future dealings with Varis. There's also Ulk to contend with as well. We haven't seen him at all but I guess he might be involved in a future quest chain, likely a side story.

[Alleo]

I am going to be honest. I am not personally someone who was particularly sympathetic to Giaus. For all the talk about dealing with the primal threats and extablishing rule many of the worst problems we have had to deal with including the summoning of primals is due to the Garleans. In the end we didn't even kill him. He died from his castrum blowing up, something he caused by messing with a destructive technology he didn't fully understand.

Considering Giaus started that fight I am even less willing to feel sorry for stopping him. He made his own fate.

I remember a reddit post that stated that 1.0 Gaius was far from a nice person. Something about impaling someone on his hand and pulling this one in front of him to make it look like that person is still alive, while trying to kill our "retainer" and us and later dropping a big attack on us. Not sure if that is true but they said that 1.0 and 2.x Gaius are like two different people.

We should, our actions not only made the primals threat worse, but also led to Zenos becoming the new ala mhigan vice-roy in a sense we are responsible for the worsening conditions of ala mhigo, also I'm not sure they are simple shades, Sid's mentor did show some extent of sense of self, also no I'm not buiyng that we felt bad for Rhitatyn, we only met once and had few words to spare, nor I think we felt guilt for Livia or Ilberd

Gaius was the one that ordered the attack on the scion base, he was the one that started it all and later used the Ultima weapon as a threat against the alliance..it is not our fault that he went that way and we cant just do nothing about such a threat. Even in the real world one will never know if the action will create a better or worse life but doing nothing is still the worst outcome. (Even more since we were not the aggressors) Also why is it our fault that Varis decided to sent his monstrous son there? He could have sent someone like Regula or other higher ups. Blaming the WoL for things that are kinda out of our hand is a bit much.

What would be the other route we could have taken? Doing nothing? This would have meant that the alliance would have been forced to sign his order thus Eorzea would be lost to Garlemald. All city states would be under their rule and who knows how many people would have suffered under this. At least lots of our beast man friends would probably be death and a lot of echo users would lose their life too. And we dont even know if Gaius would have been the ruler of this..maybe Varis would have sent his son to us to destroy any rebellion..so in the end this was still the lesser devil of it.

About Dark knight: We do know that normal souls will go into the lifestream after death thus the person loses their very self. Myste being able to summon the real souls would go against this. I am more of the belief that the sense of self they showed is nothing more than what Myste believed them to be like. (From stories, from meeting the person when they were still alive and more) But I agree with you that I cant just believe that we would feel bad for Rhitatyn and Livia. The latter was responsible for killing our comrades and our slyph friend. Maybe we do feel a little guilty because we met her sister and realized that we killed her family. So it is a bit strange and I feel like Myste had quite a big range of reasons for summoning them. (Or it was just random decision by SE who knows)

In the end I feel it is kinda unfair to blame everything on our WoL. Who would ever think that doing good things might lead to a destroyed world? (It still does not make sense to me x)) Also if you have the power to stop it, doing nothing out of fear for making it worse would lead to the death of many people..well all of those death people are your fault too. Not sure if that is a great feeling. Also it was more than once shown that the WoL does try to take care of their mistakes and that we do try to take another route. (Talking enemies out of fighting, giving others second chances, hearing out the dragons even though we believed them to be at fault, helping beast man when no other would do so, taking out primals that are either summoned out of our doings or the doings of others) In the end we are still only one person and can only do so much. But doing nothing would be the worst possible outcome.

[Cilia]

Well, he's immensely popular as a character so if nothing else there's always going to be people calling for or at least hoping for his return. It is strange that he doesn't show up in either the DRK quest chain or POTD despite his major comrades being accounted for in both. With, of course, the exception of Nero who we already know is alive and well.

Gaius' absence from the DRK 70 quest doesn't necessarily mean anything. Myste's shades were based on memories and don't use the souls of the dead, so theoretically it would be possible to create such a shade of someone who still lives. Theoretically they don't have to be dead, and either way not being here doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Gaius not being in the Palace of the Dead, on the other hand... that might mean something. Then again it might not, since as I recall only the restless dead appear in the Palace and Gaius seemed pretty at peace when he (apparently) died.

Myste being able to summon the real souls would go against this. I am more of the belief that the sense of self they showed is nothing more than what Myste believed them to be like. (From stories, from meeting the person when they were still alive and more)

Myste's shades are just phantoms made from memories, and their character and temperament is based on the memories used to create them. It's why Ser Ignasse is the kind and gentle cousin Millie remembers when made from her memories, but a fierce enemy when made from our own. Ser Ompange's shade even needles Sidurgu about it, saying something like "Of course, I'm not the real Ser Ompagne. Only what you remember him being." This is why that particular shade is able to press Sidurgu beyond his limits - he never believed he could defeat Ser Ompagne, so he was unable to.

[Draginhikari]

Problem is we are not helping, as the warrior of darkness have shown us we are playing right in the ascians plan, they summon a primal, we kill it, they summon a stronger one, we kill, repeat till they'll turn to zodiark.
Misguided as they are Garleans are searching for a way to fix this problem and as pointed out since they are the cause, rightly so
Now I'm not saying they are benevolent or the best thing ever, I'm just saying that if we take in consideration the larger picture, operation archon was a disaster for ala mhigo, as we traded Gaius for a monster, whose objectives were not the good of anyone but himself and his wish of fullfillment trough battle

The main problem comes down to 'what else do we do' kind of situation. The primals by their very existence are an immediate threat to everything around them due to their nature to drain the aether from the surrounding area, the ability to temper, and causing extensive amount of damage. So far most of the alternatives we've witnesses have their own extreme downsides. The Allagans trapped Bahamut in Dalamund which caused Bahamut rage to only built and cause a calamity when he was finally released (and likely would have destroyed everything if Louisoix hadn't interferred). The Warriors of Darkness destroyed the Ascians of their world but that caused the power of light to become too powerful and start erasing things. In the world of the void Auracite was used to absorb primals only to have the aether corrupt the heroes themselves.

The Garleans solution doesn't pan out much better, they want to straight out eliminate elements and religion as a whole to prevent the primals from coming forth, which only breeds further desperation from the Beast Tribes to only encourage further summonings. In reality with an idea you have to eliminate everyone who believes in said idea or try to change their perspective which the Garleans have shown limits on being able to accomplish. Their attempts to use ancient technology they only somewhat understand hasn't worked out much better either.

At this point the Warrior of Light is well aware of their situation but they probably realize they are not the ones who are going to find a long term solution to the primal problem. So in the meantime all they can do is try to minimize further damage and protect who they can till a better solution can be determined.

[TheCount]

Yotsuyu surviving doesn't bother me in the slightest. Yes, she did terrible things - but she did them due to being treated terribly by the Doman people who were far from innocent themselves.

Having a shitty family and a wifebeater as a husband does not justify in the slightest genocide or wanting to murder each and every Doman in the worst way possible to get your jollies off. Nor is it a reasonable jump to make. She's just broken in the head, her reasoning behind her actions isn't good but that fits the fact that her experiences broke her. She's no longer a sane person. Her experiences with sadism clearly shaped her own need to see that sadism afflicted upon others to feel power and control and joy, to give reason to her past suffering. That's why it's impossible to redeem her in any way, unless she somehow loses her entire memory of who she was and becomes a completely different person because of it, then a very very slight maybe.

[Belhi]

Having a shitty family and a wifebeater as a husband does not justify in the slightest genocide or wanting to murder each and every Doman in the worst way possible to get your jollies off. Nor is it a reasonable jump to make. She's just broken in the head, her reasoning behind her actions isn't good but that fits the fact that her experiences broke her. She's no longer a sane person. Her experiences with sadism clearly shaped her own need to see that sadism afflicted upon others to feel power and control and joy, to give reason to her past suffering. That's why it's impossible to redeem her in any way, unless she somehow loses her entire memory of who she was and becomes a completely different person because of it, then a very very slight maybe.

We have gone into this several times in the thread but I don't think its sadism that is the source of her cruelty. Its hatred. If it was just sadism any victim would do.

Yotsuyu is very disturbed and her actions aren't justified. However, if her story is to be believed, she is the product of a culture that chose to ignore injustices either out of fear or shame. We see a lot of the downtrodden looking away from the suffering and abuse of others out of fear they too might become targeted. It wasn't just the cruelty that was inflicted on her but the fact that when she asked for help people turned their backs on her. Now she projects all her pain and hate on those she feels abandoned her to her nightmare, even though it makes little sense. Its an outlet to a ocean of emotion she has never been able to process.

From my perception Yotsuyu had a break down at the end. Its not surprising. She was a pretty mentally unstable person. In the end she broke. You cant be full of that much pain, rage and hate for a long time and not be at risk of the dam bursting. It will be curious to see what the fallout of that is.