[SPOILERS] Stormblood Ending

[Kallera]

Every nation has blood on their hands, eslecially the bigger ones. Some of us--shock, gasp!--have lives in the bigger ones anyway, and maybe see that their military does not solely consist of louts either. You think I, a citizen, would be in any position to say anything other than "sucks, bro." to someone that had their country ruined in the past few years of war? Or would be in the mood for a revolution or war in my own country because some saps did a few chores for me? Nope.

[Okamimaru]

I'm sure there were plenty of people in the Nazi army who were good people forced into a bad position but that doesn't make the whole thing better... north Korea has some wonderful people living there but their leadership is batshit crazy... it's not about the empire as a whole being good bad or whatever... it's those in charge who define the objectives of their governance... we could deal with every legatis in the empire in a calm and diplomatic matter but unless varis is willing to accept what we offer its all a moot point... and varis doesn't care what we think... he didn't get where he is to build an alliance with savages who keep messing up his plans

[Cilia]

Hey now! No mentioning the Nazis; it doesn't lead anywhere good.

I mean, I will go there if enough people want. It would require open hypocrisy, breaking my own self-imposed oath to keep them out of it, and stirring up even more controversy, but if enough people really want it...

You make a very good point though; as long as Garlemald is an Empire, Varis has the final say in what it does, and he wasn't exactly receptive to the idea of not killing the Zundu tribe when we encountered him in the Sea of Clouds. (Only Lucia's timely arrival on magitek armor saved them.) Working with Elidibus isn't likely to make him more affable, either. He may have been Regula's friend, but that doesn't mean anything in context - if he's unwilling to listen he's unwilling to listen, and that's what's important.

Even if we do get a Larsa figure, unless we're able to convince Varis peace is a better option it's all pointless. We'll need to convince him... or depose him, and given the similarities such a story arc would likely have to Stormblood, I don't think the latter is the case.

Maybe. Possibly. Who knows.

[PArcher]

I have to say, this multithread fighting over the nature of the Empire is really making it hard to enjoy what was once an informative and engaging lore forum.

Agreed. Especially since one side is openly disputing and/or ignoring the game's established lore to fit their agendas.

[Caffekon]

I like Garlemald, why they wouldn't conquer the world anyway? They have an ultimate source of power that has put them in a position of two choices considering Hydaelin is a world filled with powerful nations and political interests, remain isolated and eventualy lose their technology to a far more superior foreign force after raids or attack the "savage" nations with a different culture and inferior technology, after all it seems Garleans true intentions are not completely clear even now tho, all we know is that they hate beast tribes, primals and those touched by the echo etc.

[Cilia]

Bein' totally honest, I expected a firestorm in response to the "Empire is the bad guys" expansion.

Did not expect it to get as widespread as it has.

[Theodric]

Agreed. Especially since one side is openly disputing and/or ignoring the game's established lore to fit their agendas.

Except that isn't what is happening at all. Both sides are guilty of doing that and if you were truly objective yourself then you wouldn't be trying to throw your perceived 'side' atop a pedestal. Though I wonder, how many of those involved in these debates will even acknowledge that? More importantly, how many of those who do acknowledge it will do so in a manner that doesn't belittle the other side of what without a doubt a very nuanced and complicated set of issues?

[PArcher]

Except that isn't what is happening at all. Both sides are guilty of doing that and if you were truly objective yourself then you wouldn't be trying to throw your perceived 'side' atop a pedestal. Though I wonder, how many of those involved in these debates will even acknowledge that? More importantly, how many of those who do acknowledge it will do so in a manner that doesn't belittle the other side of what without a doubt a very nuanced and complicated set of issues?

Holding Gaius in such high regard...then claiming things he said aren't true because they show the Empire in a bad light

That's just one example. And that one I've seen multiple times from you.

If you want to have serious debates, don't go trying to spin in lore to suit your favor, when it clearly states otherwise. Or, take those types of arguments to Reddit or General Discussion (where that stuff is commonplace)

[Theodric]

Ah, yet more deflection! It truly is an art form for some, I suppose. Do you disagree with my previous post? If you're paying such careful attention to what specific individuals are posting on this bored than surely you are in firm agreement with my words. Otherwise you're just doing the very thing you are trying to criticise others for.

I deal in facts, not biased emotional arguments about misguided morality that ignores all nuance. I have also outlined multiple times that I am absolutely fine with people agreeing to disagree - though it's very telling that such an offer is rarely accepted. I know precisely why, though - because if such an offer is embraced then it removes the opportunity for posts like your own that single out specific posters in an attempt to harass and ridicule them through twisting past posts. Please do not do that, it isn't very nice!

At any rate, are you going to call anyone else out or is this just another one sided affair like last time you did the same thing?

If you want to put debates you find problematic to rest you don't do that by swooping in and making underhanded comments aimed at other posters whilst making one 'side' in said debate seem completely unreasonable whilst ignoring the problems associated with the other side. That exact approach to complicated political issues in the real world is precisely why so many problems have come to plague society in both the present day and the past.

Ultimately, though, we're discussing a fictional setting. It's really not something worth getting so worked up about to the point where you feel hostility towards another poster.

[PArcher]

I deal in facts, not biased emotional arguments about misguided morality that ignores all nuance.

Recently you claimed that 1.x lore is irrelevant and should not count in arguments, and when the Garleans are compared to certain historical empires, you get worked up to the extreme.

I've stopped posting because you type up these political BS posts that try to spin everything Garlean into a good light, no matter how evil their actions are, and ignore or try to discredit those who prove your arguments nothing but twisted opinion with real facts.

EDIT: Heck, you ignored the post above mine in favor of attacking me. Good work