Healer & Tank DPS (WoW vs FFXIV)

[Shurrikhan]

Why the emphasis? People looooooove to show off their numerical epeen on fflogs. If anyone says there's another reason they're probably lying to you and themselves.

Most of the decently dps-contributing healers and tanks I know either don't know what FFlogs is or aren't on the site.

They just notice this weird thing where, when they actually contribute, runs go faster. Shocker.

This is only because MP conservation is not a thing for healers. If healer MP regen was so low that they eventually hit a point where they go OOM regardless of what you do, the focus changes to smart use of MP and the tanks/DPS not taking more damage than needed.

But then you have to ask yourself—is standing idle fun? Even if thoughtfully done? We have the multiple ranks of MP- vs. time-efficiency, identically to WoW (save that we add potency rather than speed). Do we really want to shift emphasis from well-timed burst to using as few burst skills as possible, and standing around to regen mana? (Not that that's really a thing in WoW either at that point.)

If only more people thought that way. But sadly it appears that will never be the case. It's general "DPS or be ridiculed, insulted, and harassed."

Only by the same degree by which DPS who don't dodge or self-buff and tanks who don't use CDs or insist on having 5x the 2nd enmity's threat are ridiculed. Why would it be any different? They're wasting their own and/or others' potential contribution.

So this is just kinda like, passing the DPS buck then; as it were? I mean, either way the extra damage is coming from somewhere, whether it's you playing offensively or a healer playing offensively.

Fair enough, although actual efficiency will usually pass the torch back and forth between the healer's offensive mode (still maintaining efficient heals like oGCD usage on CD unless needing to be saved and HoTs) and the tank's whole-hog mode. That's part of what makes having a tank and healer who each know what they're doing, on each side, so fun.

Letting others die because I'm going Holy Happy is just silly to me.

You make it sound like these are divergent strategies. They're not. You apply your Regen and DoT if efficient, and then you continue to DPS until you need to heal again (or rather, until healing allows you more DPS). The proportion is irrelevant in itself. You just do what's efficient.

[Seoulstar]

snip.

Don't think that's still a valid excuse to harass someone.

[Shurrikhan]

Don't think that's still a valid excuse to harass someone.

And I don't think player "preference" is a valid excuse for intentional underperformance at your team's expense. Maybe that's just me... but chances are, if you're seeing this "harassment" in kind, frequently, it's not.

[Kuwagami]

And I don't think player "preference" is a valid excuse for intentional underperformance at your team's expense. Maybe that's just me... but chances are, if you're seeing this "harassment" in kind, frequently, it's not.

Could you please tell me how any healer not doing any DPS (out of OS3 or OS4 for now) is "underperformance at one's team's expense" ? For any content (out of OS3 & OS4), a dps check not being met means your DPS guys are falling behind. Plain and simple.

Not that healers not doing anything shouldn't be dpsing. Just... don't blame healers for your inability to meet the game's expectations. Odds are you aren't part of the 1% players for whom healer dps actually matters

Wrong. A WAR doesn't get any defensive buffs except increased spell healing, and most healers use oGCD's to heal, not spells. A WAR in Defiance on trash makes me sigh because he's sacrificing damage in exchange for literally nothing. Defiance might as well not even exist for SCH.

Inner Beast actually exists But yeah, any Inner Beast on trash mobs could have been a Steel Cyclone, or better, a Decimate

[Shurrikhan]

Could you please tell me how any healer not doing any DPS (out of OS3 or OS4 for now) is "underperformance at one's team's expense" ? For any content (out of OS3 & OS4), a dps check not being met means your DPS guys are falling behind. Plain and simple.

I think you've got this backwards...

Let's say you join a whistle farm group for Lakshimi or Susano Ex. Neither of these need healer DPS, by any stretch. But you can either do 10 runs in 100 minutes, or in 90, by virtue of healer dps, at no increased chance to wiping (which would have set you back from 90 to 99 minutes)—merely a increased extent of effort.

Is there a reason not to accelerate those runs?

Similarly, a DPS could just do 1-2-3 rotations, ignore their self-buffs, and push back the time it takes to make 10 clears by the same amount. Doing it right costs it nothing but increased effort. Should they be excused because they'd still clear before enrage regardless? If clearing the fight before enrage (i.e. at all) is their only job, why expect optimal or even near-optimal performance out of them? Or why expect them to dodge or participate in stacks if they're already doing all the DPS needed to fulfill their "role"?

Efforts being nearly equal (actually, higher to contribute the same increased rDPS in going from a lackluster to optimal DPS on many a job than to fill in downtime with DPS as a healer), why should one's performance gap be excused and the other's not?

I'm not saying to excuse DPS, but to ask that healers both heal and deal damage is not a double standard. Their only "job", like anyone else's is to clear in a timely manner, making best use of their kit. It's an extent of effort relative to opportunity—of real performance relative to potential, and the attention required to bridge the gap. Asking, however, that a DPS expend full effort to play near-optimally while chalking up using healer downtime at all to "choice" (as others, not necessarily you, have done) is a double standard.

I am asking that they know their jobs, and put in the effort. No more, no less. There is no point where underperformance ought to be excused only because it is not absolutely necessary.

[Nezia]

good stuff

I wonder how things would go if RDMs start campaigns against using verraise because they queued to do damage not ress people.