Healer & Tank DPS (WoW vs FFXIV)

[Taika]

It's been said time and again, confirmed by the devs themselves, that dps check design doesn't take tank and healer dps into account.

Correction: the fights are balanced excluding healer DPS when cleared in the middle of the patch (and while DDs and tanks are performing at 85%-90% of their optimal capacity), and Yoshi himself has admitted that healer DPS is needed when the raids are done when they are released (because they are balanced for higher item level than what's available for players). This is the original quote you're referring to:

Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers.

Source: https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...-Event-5-19%29

[Katryn]

It all boils down to ABC: Always Be Casting. No one is going to freak out if a tank needs more heals, but no one wants to deal with a healer spamming /dance emotes during combat. Ever. It's lazy and disrespectful to the group. Fights in this game are scripted, so people can ideally memorize when to use abilities. It's not like WoW where everyone is constantly taking spikes of damage. And healers here tend to have a fair number of ways to fix their mana if it's running low, so generally 'standing to get mp back' does not apply. As for tanks, their dps skills / rotation work in tandem with their hate gathering skills so not using them would be a waste.

[HPDelron]

This is a big question with a complicated answer and I don't want to make a long post. So here's the short version:

• Mob Damage is bursty. There is much downtime for both healing and mitigation.
• Mitigation Skills are long CDs tied to scripted battle events. There is no equivalent to WoWs "Active Mitigation" uptime.
• Healing CDs are on shorter cooldowns, and don't consume GCDs.
• Healer & Tank DPS have much more relative power:

A really good healer healer will be able to push 25-30% of the DPS of the top dps class in the game, while keeping everyone alive.

In WoW a disc priest, the crazy "Damage Healer" that deals out four times the DPS of any other healer barely manages 25% dps of the worst DPS class in that game. A more typical healer's damage is a rounding error on the boss.

The net result is that pound-for-pound, GCD-for-GCD FF14 is game that demands less healing and tanking from it's healers and tanks, while simultaneously given them more potent damage tools.

[Kitfox]

It's been said time and again, confirmed by the devs themselves, that dps check design doesn't take tank and healer dps into account. Stop blaming the tank and healers for your own inability to learn your job.

Whether it's taken into account or not is irrelevant. Stop blaming design intent for your inability to play optimally.

[AxiomPITCH]

Another reason there's so much emphasis on tank/healer dps is there's no encouragement for dps to get better, and it's still easy for a dps to not realize they're doing poorly. Actually had a friend who thought he was really good on SAM, then I queued with him into O4N and absolutely dominated.

Bad players will be bad. Who would have thought?

Healer/Tank DPS in bad groups is a crutch, a means to catch up, and should be used at the tank/heal's discretion. Countless times I've healed or tanked a dungeon or even just dps phases of past primals and if I don't dps things just do. not. ever. die. Chances are, if they don't know how to play their job, they also don't know how to avoid damage, which only compounds the problem when mixed with a bad healer or bad tank trying to do damage when they can't even perform their base role. One example being a SCH or AST chain spamming broil or malefic instead of shielding while tank buster is charging on the warrior still in Deliverance with no cooldowns.

Healer/Tank DPS from the perspective of anyone even mildly competent knows it is a versatile tool applicable in most content in the game, but that it should never be capitalized on when the survival of the group is at stake. Basically, do what you want in easy content like dungeons and do your best to toss up damage in content that's harder, but it should never be a huge priority, since if DPS have a brain, damage being met should never be an issue.

[Taika]

Whether it's taken into account or not is irrelevant. Stop blaming design intent for your inability to play optimally.

This is also true: it makes no sense to not contribute with DPS when you easily can, and whatever is said about the development decisions has no effect on how the raids should actually be played. Also, it's simply ridiculous to claim asking your DDs to overgear the content AND perform 85-90% of their perfect optimal capacity just so you can perform at 50% (probably less) is somehow fair.

[Kuwagami]

snip

Adding up to that, tank DPS is calculated taking into account only tank stance for every second tanks are actually... tanking. Or at least supposed to have their tank stance. Yoshida never was a fan of tanking in dps stance.

Still, healer dps and tank pushing dps are irrelevant to all content but the last turns of the latest released tier of raid. Namely OS3 & OS4 currently, and super-savage next patch. People asking for 2.5k tank dps in susano are asking to get carried

Whether it's taken into account or not is irrelevant. Stop blaming design intent for your inability to play optimally.

Staying in dps stance, healing and poping the minimum amount of CDs needed to barely survive in order to push out more dps is not playing optimally if you aren't in a static with members you are used to play with and trust, though. At best they'll barely follow up and manage to keep you alive, at worst you'll waste everyone's time by making people wipe needlessly in order to get 10 seconds faster kills.

[Galgarion]

snip

Bosses have too much health, and healers have too much free time. Full stop. This is a game where everything is telegraphed in advance. Anyone who can brush their teeth while breathing through their nose is capable of avoiding excessive damage, leaving healers with absolutely no reason not to join in on the gang-bang. I'm not a huge stickler for healers always dpsing, but just because I'm laid back doesn't mean they aren't being lazy as hell if they're just standing there waiting for my bar to dip enough to justify a Cure II. No stance dancing = No excuses, y'know?

[Shurrikhan]

It's less that WoW healer dps is low as that they're further into their latest expansion by which to see a bigger gap between DPS and healer dps potential, and that in WoW it takes more GCDs to top someone off, by combination of higher player HP proportionate to damage and less healing, and there being more "white" (AA/steady) damage, on average.

Being able to try to ban anyone who would point out your performance objectively probably doesn't help the situation, as the assumption may end up being that the DPS are playing optimally, thus leaving only the healers and tanks to squeeze out more DPS, when in fact they've a good twentieth or more (typically more) DPS potential to go, which means a lot over 4 DPS.

[Paladinleeds]

People asking for 2.5k tank dps in susano are asking to get carried

I have to disagree as far as farm groups go. In farm groups you're wanting to squueze out every last malm of efficiency you can so you can get more kills in less time.