how does it feel to be rejected in raid party?

[Elnidfse]

Hasn't it already been proven by some reliable sources that a MCH can pull comparable numbers to a BRD

The theoretical 40 DPS higher does not make up for the 200 lower rDPS. In any fight that cuts it close, that will always be the deciding factor. Once people get better that won't be the case, but in progression it will always be the case.

I saw a recent calculation in which bard's rDPS contribution seems to be almost double that of MCH's :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...24/unknown.png

Take this for a grant of salt but I do believe that 2% constant crit buff is much more that what people usually credit it for

This was formula'd on the japanese forum ages ago:

I ended up doing an extremely shoddy translation job but I can't find it. But when you take numbers of actual uptime it differs from this images uptime
i.e; 15% hypercharge for Susanoo
25% for Lak, Alte, Onslaught, and hali
Which is indeed accurate for the post that you pulled out of discord (that being a 1.25% rDPS increase for MCH and near double for BRD). You can do the experiment on your own and pull form the middle 30 to bring up the numbers and then average them which will still give you a near 25% uptime which leads to 1.25%.

Naturally that ends up being tight right now. On the topic of DPS, i generally bring 3.8k-3.9k to most of the fights while also fighting against slightly more lag than what a normal player would face. That said, that requires as good of a rotation I can think of while also keeping up mechanics

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I think we've come full circle back to the fact that, regardless of damage/support disparities, both jobs have shown themselves fully capable of being able to progress. Even if one is more favorable than the other, the fact that plenty of MCHs are still capable of progressing this tier shows how pointless the idea of rejecting one in favor of the other is.

This is in no way me saying that MCH is fine as is (let me be clear on that lest someone try to misquote me). Ultimately choose and bring what you want for progression, but both can pull it off, so rejecting anything really is a moot point.

[Elnidfse]

the fact that plenty of MCHs are still capable of progressing this tier shows how pointless the idea of rejecting one in favor of the other is.

Plenty?
Know how many MCH have cleared V4S? How about parses. Do you know how many parses of V4S have been submitted?
Where are you in your progression?
I can pull 3.8-4k rather consistently (which is what SSS says I need to pull) so I don't feel like I'll have much to worry about in terms of clearing (and has indeed not been the case thus far). But I don't think SE intentionally designed a tier in mind where only the 85 percentile and higher can knock it over.

While I don't see anything wrong with the statement "MCH are capable of progressing" it certainly ain't going to be "plenty" of them that end up making it. ( The least of these reasons being not invited because people are blowing their faults out of proportion)

[Zheri]

--snip--

5. There have been 5 submitted MCH parses of V4S. They are the lowest personal DPS by any metric you choose to look at while bringing half the rDPS increase of a BRD. In a world of >1% wipes and kills literally >1s before hard enrage it is nobody's fault but SE's that MCH are being left out in the cold. For trivial content, sure, who cares, it's trivial. Real progression is a whole different game where refusal to adapt is a real detriment to your group, a point which was hammered home to me years ago during Heroic Cho'gall when our Arcane Mage flat out refused to change to Fire. (There was a mechanic that gave some sort of massive crit bonus which hugely benefited Fire Mages to the point that not having one in the group made the fight nearly impossible early on.)

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

"Plenty" of them won't make it when the general misconception that they can't do it or should switch to BRD so that they aren't "holding their group back" goes unchallenged.

And no, I don't know how many have cleared V4S. I really don't care how many have or haven't, and it's entirely beside the larger point I intended to make. I myself am not even there yet, but I do know I've had no trouble progressing in a group that's neither 100% perfect, nor a meta comp at all. You said it yourself that people are blowing faults out of proportion. That's WHY I even bother speaking up; I'm not okay with the idea of people abandoning or rejecting a job they like/are good at/are interested in, and is fully capable of clearing, just because the usual community overreaction paints a picture that it's impossible.

It can be done with "non-viable" jobs so long as you do your part, are competent, and your team works well together. Unfortunatly a lot of people playing at being hard core tend to not understand that. Hang in there!

I didn't see this on page 2 til now. This is all I've been trying to say.

[Elnidfse]

You seem to miss the point altogether. Working harder 90% to achieve the least feels a lot worse than working at 60% to achieve the average. Given how execution heavy MCH is with their simple simple simple rotation, losing a WF in 10 minutes from doing improper wildfires will give you a rather large blow. My first clear had me just like that. While I can do up to 4k on alt roite my first clear on release was at 3.5k (actually just barely under). Try taking that 3.5k (or even 3.6-3.7k) into V3S and seeing what happens. That's a wipe to enrage. And I can guarantee you that most MCH don't play at the level to never make a mistake ever that I had to practice and practice and practice to do (mostly to compensate for the lag that I get on my weaves).


But to help prove my point. Go do an experiment for me. Do whatever rotation you use and go beat up the V4S dummy. I can clear that rather solidly at ilvl 321. Tell me how you fare. Denying MCH out of your V3S and V4S clears isn't stupid or unfounded. It's simple math. Unless that MCH is 70th percentile he probably can't even perform well enough to destroy a V3S target dummy let alone push a clear in a final phase party. That's a 30% chance you get a MCH worth his salt or pray to god you have a godlike SAM or BLM who can make up that difference. The "out of proportion" i'm talking about is people not even taking them to something as easy as V1S and V2S for some reason.

Which I feel like this is going to be taken wrongly so let me also add this:

YOU, yes YOU anybody who reads this, can and should be able to clear V3S and V4S (with enough practice). So don't let it get to you if you get denied out of a party because some dweebs think you're not up to snuff. It's not because you're bad, it's just because there's a higher chance of you being the "average" mch and not the "best" mch

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Honestly, I believe MCH deserves some buffs but clearly they shouldn't be blocked out of parties when they can clear just fine even in a non-optimal comp. In the case of a static, either a BRD or MCH taking the ranged position should be fine.

It can be done with "non-viable" jobs so long as you do your part, are competent, and your team works well together. Unfortunatly a lot of people playing at being hard core tend to not understand that.

anybody who reads this, can and should be able to clear V3S and V4S (with enough practice). So don't let it get to you if you get denied out of a party because some dweebs think you're not up to snuff.

With regards to the central topic of being rejected from parties, this really is all that need be said on it. This isn't about the math behind it. This isn't about who hits what and how hard. This is purely about whether it makes sense to be rejected from any of the current raids as a MCH, and it doesn't. Can a Bard do it better? Sure. But if your group doesn't have one or there isn't one available, a MCH can do it too. That's really just it. Just the raw fact that any capable player can get the job done, even if you're a MCH. And that "average/best" comment can be applied to any job. We all know WHY people are rejecting MCH. All I'm saying, all I've been saying, is that it's pretty pointless to unilaterally do so.

[Elnidfse]

Being able to do something and doing it are two different things. We could hypothetically be a top 1 percentile MCH but we're not.

And that "average/best" comment can be applied to any job.

The exception being that an average MNK is still clearing V2S without seeing enrage. While it's impossible to extrapolate what a MCH is now given how nonexistant there parses are for V3S a 50% BRD does enough damage that his rDPS contribution alone would carry their group to clear if it came close because everybody was doing the bare minimal to clear. (and it does indeed come close)

In reference to MCH personal DPS and party acceptance:
You seem to think that nobody has the right to reject a MCH when there's a realistic chance that if he's average mcaverage he won't be pushing your clear before enrage. My first V2S attempt the weekend after release had us blowing up to enrage with no dps deaths. At that time I was still doing 3.6k. We didn't EVEN clear it normally. The boss AI broke and he did another DPS rotation instead of doing his enrage. I can do 3.9k to 4.1k now on that fight but that's because I spent hours practicing and finding ways to compensate for lag that I eat. And then there's screw-up recovery. I've seen a SAM die and still pull 3.8k. You know how much that MCH is going to hit if he dies? Up to 1k below that depending on where in his rotation he died.

On the topic of defensive cooldowns, there's the tools you have:
For V3 a dismantle is only covering a single AoE and that boss throws out ton of them and critical hit (tank buster) as well as summoning high damage adds that hit like nuclear explosions to the poor tank who has to deal with that. I use dismantle for the boss aoe (or tank buster depending on where the tank is at in his health+cooldowns), palisade on the sub tank when something like Apanda rolls out, and just pray the healers can handle the post book or add phase when lots of damage is coming to everybody. For library in particular it gets really dicey because you have to dismantle before stacks and spreads so people can outright survive if they got graced by so much as a stray wind. This entire situation would be mitigated far better with a BRD. The only time the inverse is actually true is for V4S where dismantle lower cooldown trumps all .

For Clarity:
It's fully possible to clear with any comp. And any MCH can clear if he wants to put in the work. But people are full within their rights to reject a MCH for V3S and V4S because your enrage timers are nowhere close to as generous as they are with V1S and V2S. This has nothing to do with the potential of that MCH being of the level of the 0.5% MCH that have even cleared Neo Exdeath. It has to do with simple math. He's far less likely to be on that level than he his of being average. And you don't need an average MCH, you need an exceptional MCH. Because an exceptional MCH can be on par with an above average SAM and push you to a clear in the case that anybody dies. (and I should note that it's easy to say "don't die" but that doesn't change the fact that mistakes happen, and I've seen parties disband on such simple things like Zurvan even if they were only wiping on enrage)

As a disclaimer:
This is only when taking into consideration "do are PF's being irrational from saying "no MCH on our V4S"
This is completely different when taking a farm party with gear into consideration
But for progression? Forget it. I'd rather make a party comp where somebody can die and it won't be the death of a run 9 minutes into it. Yes that would indeed mean "i'm bad", and because I'm bad I need my safetynet. Think of it like an aircraft carrier. On the flight deck they have nets on the side of the ship. You'd rather not have to use them, but the few times I've seen them be used they were great to have.

Note: This is why statics exist. My static sure was accommodating with me no matter how many times we enraged when we were doing V1S and V2S and I eventually paid them back by getting better.
Though we're like 6/8 out of this "static" so I guess it's a "dynamic"

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

/headdesk

Okay.

[Ronzeru]

How does ait feel to be rejected in raid party? Honestly.... really good. I was a FFXI Dragoon.... so watching others suffer after years of LFG.... kinda gives me wood.