I Love 4.0 Summoner. A lot.

[TsundereImouto]

I thought they said they would fine tune numbers based off Omega Normal performance? or was is based on Omega Savage? If they want to balance classes around the average player then they sure as hell failed with SMN. Look at this gap of SMN's compared to other classes (Omega Normal compared to the Omega Savage above):

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/16...gregate=amount

Check every percentile. It's so bad.

Using a clunky, unresponsive pet class that was altered to prevent you from increasing your dps (using Aetherflow in dreadwyrm trance) Might be fine for you, But in no way is Summoner in a good spot. The Playstyle feels neutered from what it once was to me and there's no payoff for it.

Tuning numbers and redesigning a job are completely separate things. I admit multiple times in this thread that Summoner is undertuned. The question is whether Summoner is fun or not. You said the playstyle is neutered, but I think the playstyle is amazing. You actually have to try to be a good summoner, and being a good summoner feels really fun. This is personal opinion.

For me, there doesn't have to be any payoff. If I had to work really hard to be equal at the top level to a black or red mage, i would be happy to do that. Playing Summoner would be a choice to play a more complex playstyle while still being balanced at the top. We are currently undertuned compared to them, but in my mind that's agnostic to the difficulty of the class. In my opinion, you shouldn't get to do more DPS at the 95+percentiles because your class is harder to master; that complexity and depth should be a choice you get to make because you enjoy playing like that. A simpler yet stronger Summoner would be disgusting. That's what red mage is; boring, yet strong without even trying. For me, I derive fulfillment from a challenging and balanced class.

[Ariomi]

For me, there doesn't have to be any payoff. If I had to work really hard to be equal at the top level to a black or red mage, i would be happy to do that. Playing Summoner would be a choice to play a more complex playstyle while still being balanced at the top. We are currently undertuned compared to them, but in my mind that's agnostic to the difficulty of the class. In my opinion, you shouldn't get to do more DPS at the 95+percentiles because your class is harder to master; that complexity and depth should be a choice you get to make because you enjoy playing like that. A simpler yet stronger Summoner would be disgusting. That's what red mage is; boring, yet strong without even trying. For me, I derive fulfillment from a challenging and balanced class.

I see things completely opposite then you. Summoner already has been simplified. Out of the four dots summoner had, they have been reduced to two dots and an Ogcd that's instant. Dot's used to take 10 seconds to cast (Shadowflare Bio 2 Miasma Bio) and the new to dots that take 2.5 seconds to cast and can be insta cast with Tri-Disaster. Pet's as you said can be set to "Sic" which is also simplified. Pet's don't need any more interaction with that past that point -simpler. Dreadwyrm trance has been streamlined so that it automatically resets Tri-Disaster and locks you into using ruin 3 exclusively. Aetherflow stacks can no longer fall off, and can no longer be lost even if you fester/bane a target with no dots. Fester and Painflare had their cooldowns cut in half, making it easier to fit into abilities like trick attack or litany. Ruin 1 + 3 automatically change to Ruin 4 when it procs and requires no additional input to use. Objectively speaking Summoner couldnt get any easier unless Smn automatically deathflares, or bahamut automatically uses his attacks. It's been extremely simplified. Did you play it in heavensward? It was much more complicated using aetherflow in dreadwyrm trance and squeezing out as much damage as possible compared to how it is now. Summoner got three new buttons for stormblood. Devotion, Summon Bahamut, and Ahk morn. Everything else just dumbed down or changed into something else. It was made to be as easy as possible. Not a single thing could be done to make it easier unless the class starts playing itself. The most difficult part of the class is trying to Ahk morn twice in contagion's duration.

Red Mage is the polar opposite to Summoner. If you say you find it boring, I would ask you if you have ever played Red Mage, let alone level it to 70. Or are you just listening to what other people say instead of playing it for yourself? (Your profile suggests that your only level 70 class is arcanist, and your next highest class is a level 60 machinist.) Red Mage requires much more thought then Summoner, balancing three different procs and trying to constantly keep uptime on the boss. Red Mage doesn't have a single dot, and I often find myself trying new ways of sneaking in dps. Any time a Red Mage isn't busy casting, backflipping or melee-ing they are doing 0 damage. In comparison, Summoner's pet and their dots make doing damage easy. Your pet will auto attack anything once in combat and Dots do damage as long as they last. Summoner is much easier to do damage, (Albeit less damage.) In O3s I found out that I can lunge towards Apanda, unleash my melee combo on it, and backflip back into my square and verholy it for extra damage, instead of staying in my square and losing damage. If I mess up that jump in anyway, somebody is going to die. Something Summoner never has to worry about.

Your entitled to your opinion, but classes need to be rewarding. If the hardest class in the game offers no reward and is utterly useless, nobody is going to want to play or use that class. I don't see level 70 Archers, or gladiators, or Marauders running around. Those are probably the hardest classes to play at level 70. Yet I don't see anyone playing them. I suspect it's cause those classes aren't rewarding to play and struggle to stay viable. Summoner to me is simpler and weaker which is infinitely more disgusting to me then it being Simpler and strong. There already are classes that are relatively simple and strong, and there are classes are that complicated. If you think Summoner is complex, you should switch to dragoon. That class is far more complicated, requires several positional attacks, and has a long history of people dying trying to squeeze in more dps.

The most challenging fight for summoner in my opinion, was a11s back in heavensward. When Aetherflow had numerous opportunities to fall off. Something that's impossible to happen now.

[Neela]

I see things completely opposite then you. Summoner already has been simplified. (snip)

Red Mage is the polar opposite to Summoner. If you say you find it boring, I would ask you if you have ever played Red Mage, let alone level it to 70. Or are you just listening to what other people say instead of playing it for yourself? (Your profile suggests that your only level 70 class is arcanist, and your next highest class is a level 60 machinist.) Red Mage requires much more thought then Summoner, balancing three different procs and trying to constantly keep uptime on the boss. Red Mage doesn't have a single dot, and I often find myself trying new ways of sneaking in dps. Any time a Red Mage isn't busy casting, backflipping or melee-ing they are doing 0 damage. In comparison, Summoner's pet and their dots make doing damage easy. Your pet will auto attack anything once in combat and Dots do damage as long as they last. Summoner is much easier to do damage, (Albeit less damage.) In O3s I found out that I can lunge towards Apanda, unleash my melee combo on it, and backflip back into my square and verholy it for extra damage, instead of staying in my square and losing damage. If I mess up that jump in anyway, somebody is going to die. Something Summoner never has to worry about.

(snip)

i don't know if you are serious about that part or just kidding... Rdm needs more thoughts and is more complex? In which world? Rdm is boring and braindead - even if you get a proc wrong you won't lose dps compared to smn. Rdm have 1001 ways to continue after a mistake smn not - they are simple screwed up if they do a wrong decision, if they have to move Bahamut or fall of short mp (what rdm actually never do) if you time con wrong or healer negate radiant reflect with shields etc.. so where exactly do u see the "foreseeing" or "complexity" of rdm cls? rdms only choice is "black or white spell next?" nothing more nothing less. I played both in o1s/o2s and rdm is waaaaaay more relaxing and earns way more dps even with messing up or playing as "3rd healer" with vita/res in between.

well... I think its senseless to discuss this any further... we won't find a match in this : /

[Ariomi]

well... I think its senseless to discuss this any further... we won't find a match in this : /

Healer doesn't negate Radiant Shield. It's not an actual Shield... You put it on a tank and anytime they take damage, it procs. It's like eye for an eye. It's not something that can be negated. I just think you don't know what you are talking about.

[TsundereImouto]

I see things completely opposite then you. Summoner already has been simplified.

I disagree! Summoner's playstyle was previously extremely linear; you could map out exactly when you had to recast DoTs on a target, every time. As long as you didn't use your 3rd stack before Tri-d hit the 30sec mark on its recast, you'd never have to worry about being synced up. There was some difficulty figuring out when you could hold stacks on Summoner, but the same is true now, except instead of watching a 30sec timer, you have to make sure you've used DWT at least 16sec before Aetherflow comes off cooldown; if there is downtime while AF is on cooldown, you need to figure out whether you can squeeze stuff earlier, or whether you'll have to cut DWT short. So the property still exists, it just exists in the form of making sure you can hit your AF on time every time, which becomes even harder if you are near a bahamut phase.

Before, SMN was about present thinking and upkeep management. Watch the target bar for whether dots are falling off. Watch your bar for aethertrail's timer and shadow flare's timer. Be sure you do 3 AF before tri-d comes off cooldown. Special considerations made to squeeze extra stuff into AoE phases. It was by no means simple and dumbed down, but it was easier than now in my opinion.

Now, SMN is all about forward thinking and getting the most out of the time that you have and the burst phases you'll get. Having a damage steroid every 60sec (contagion) as opposed to 180sec (raging) and the new 5 sec AF cooldowns encourages you to squeeze them together whenever possible and fit them in that window. Bonus points if you fit death flare at the beginning and tri-disaster at the end. And that's not even considering bahamut; it's incredibly tricky to fit an akh morn, 3 festers, a tri-disaster, and a bunch of wyrmwaves into that window when you have to cast it right at the beginning with no leeway; to set up that burst phase requires you think a lot about when stuff is going to come up and when you'll need it, otherwise stuff will sit off cooldown and lose you DPS. Overflowing on mana is extremely hard; between bard refresh and lucid on cd, especially in the first 2 minutes you need to be extremely vigilant in using your mana, and those 2 minutes are the hardest time to do so because so much of your kit is frontloaded and jam-packed into them. being able to use lucid 60sec earlier might mean i get 6-8 more ruin IIIs on a fight than you did, because my lucid came off cd an extra time compared to you.

I think a11s was pretty hard as SMN too. I enjoyed thinking about when i could and couldn't hold aethertrail stacks between phases. But I think with SMN's crazy chain-lockout windows right now, that fight would be much, much harder to optimize properly.
I don't think it was the hardest fight, though. For me, optimizing a8s, juggling movement and mechanics and multiple targets that you had to be careful about pushing the HP value of, was much more demanding.
Thanks for your post! It was interesting to hear your opinion

[Ariomi]

I disagree! Summoner's playstyle was previously extremely linear;

You inadvertently clarified in several more ways how summoner is even easier.Mana Management. Back in 3.0 You had a limited amount of Mana regen per minute. Summoner's now have Aetherflow (With somewhat reduced Mana regen) and Lucid Dream.
And comparing Raging Strikes to Contagion, Raging Strikes was an 180 sec cooldown. (Only 120 sec for bard) and was a 20% boost. Fester used to have a hard 10 second cooldown, Meaning you could at most 2 under raging strikes/dreadwyrm trance. Contagion has more uptime, Requires less planing and is less punishing to mess up. If you botch a contagion, you have another one in 45 seconds. You mess up old raging strikes, You won't see it again till the next battle litany. The only part is that it's too short/clunky pet ai. Fitting three fester's in contagion is possible. You can get two festers off in 6 seconds and three off in 11 seconds. Old Summoner could only get two festers off in roughly 10 seconds. You can dot enemies in 2.5 seconds-instantly vs 5 seconds each.

Summoner is as linear as it ever was. The only change to it now, is you have aetherflow roadblocks. What do I mean by this?
Summoner went from keeping aethertrail attunement up, to aetherflow down. You went from holding it as long as possible so you could dreadwyrm as aetherflow came off cooldown and get the extra damage. Now you never have to worry about Aether falling off, and focus more on never delaying it a second. What's easier? Juggling and keeping something in the air, or keeping it permanently planted on the ground under lock and key.

New Summoner is arguably more Linear, with gates that prevent you from doing what you want.

New Summoner is also easier in that you have three sets of tools for the situation. You have aetherflow, Dreadwyrm trance and Bahamut. And since they made aetherflow foolproof, you can't muck it up anymore unless you die. If you pushed Cruise Chaser in a11s, and he caught you by surprise and went untargetable, you had to pray that you could dreadwyrm before aether attunement fell off vs aetherflow sitting on cooldown for a few extra seconds.

Summoner has to worry less about mana management, lining up cooldowns, and is easier. You can't mess up dreadwyrm anymore. The only thing a Summoner fears is dying. Losing 45% of your dps instead of 25%. Summoner currently went from I used to much Mana, not enough for skills I dropped Aetherflow to I didn't use enough Mp. I didn't use dreadwyrm soon enough vs I didn't use aetherflow soon enough.

[Letz]

Pet's as you said can be set to "Sic". Red Mage requires much more thought then Summoner. Summoner is much easier to do damage, (Albeit less damage.)

The fact you think Smns can leave their pet on Sic is why you find it "easy to do less dps", and why you view Red Mage as more complicated. The intricacies Smn had in HW are still there, just in different areas. Please read research on the class, like Eirene's:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...d3LQBPy1E/edit

For SSS dummies, Smn's dps requirement is quite high, which means competitive dps is still possible. When you see that you aren't doing that level of dps (which you've admitted), your instinct should be to look up what you're doing wrong. (Surprised you haven't already done this, since you claim to be a dps raider.) I believe you didn't have this issue with Rdm since the class is well-designed and simpler to pick up- something I cannot say about Smn.

[Ariomi]

The intricacies Smn had in HW are still there, just in different areas. Please read research on the class, like Eirene's:

You seemed to miss the fact the OP mentioned that after they use the first contagion, they put their pet on sic to fight less with clunky ai.
Also Smn doesn't have a single intricacy from heavensward.

Try lining contagion up properly once and putting garuda on sic. I know it's taboo to suggest that, but after you line it up properly once you want to use it on cd anyways, and garuda is much better about casting it fast herself than when you order her to do it.

Losing or missing Aetherflow? Only if you die. Dropping aethertrail attunement because of pushing phases or unexpected event? Impossible, even in a11s.
Mana issues? Gone the moment every summoner ever put Lucid dream on their hotbar. Squeezing out fester's in dreadwyrm trance? Thing of a past. Lining up Tri-disaster with dreadwyrm trance? Automatically done for you! Want to Ruin 4? Wait till it procs and cast a spell you would probably cast anyway.

Face it dude. Summoner has been made so easy, with everything from all summoner's dots taking a combined total of 2.5 seconds to cast, to fester's cd being cut in half. It could not get any simpler then it is today. The only thing they could do to make the class easier is take the controller/keyboard out of your hand and play for you.

[Letz]

Also Smn doesn't have a single intricacy from heavensward.

Yes.. which is why I said, "Just in different areas."

Also, I am not referring to anything the OP said or didn't say. I am telling you that putting the pet on Sic is a choice that will make the class simpler but lower your dps. Which, again, is something you, personally, are having an issue with.

So again, I will state my perspective on your problem. If you were able to do respectable dps as a summoner, I doubt you'd find it faceroll easy. And, again, you yourself say you aren't satisfied with your Smn dps, while at the same time finding it overly simple. So, logically, you shouldn't have a hard time believing that your playing the class improperly.

[Ariomi]

Yes.. which is why I said, "Just in different areas."

Took me two pulls in Lahsmi ex to get a good parse on summoner. Purple parse numbers, with no astro, and the only buff being battle litany.
And there is literally nothing to the class. Dots up, Ruin 3 till your mana is lower, Ruin 3 More when Lucid Dream, Fester thrice Dreadwyrm Contagion Tri-Disaster ruin 3 spam deathflare. Repeat until Bahamut, Ahk morn as he is summoned, ruin 2 addle ruin 2 until ahk morn off cooldown and back to dots and dreadwyrm.
And those intricacies, you talk about, revolve around Summoner as a whole being dumbed down. You can debate with putting your pet on sic with the Op. I don't do it personally but the fact they do it, means Summoner requires even less effort.

Summoner's current intricacies include: Deciding to Contagion the first dreadwyrm trance then using it on the next one, or going into dreadwyrm early and popping contagion on bahamut. Using as much Ruin 3 as possible to get the most out of lucid dream, using addle to squeeze out one last wyrmwave, and that's literally it.

I have an issue with summoner when ways for it to outdps a bard are made impossible. Can't fester in dreadwyrm, and everything about the class is funky.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=42

Click here. You will be hard pressed to find a fight where Summoner has more dps then a bard, a support class mind you. Support class meaning lower personal dps, with the trade off of high utility. And unless every summoner who has ever played including you doesn't know how to play the class properly and there is a way to achieve higher numbers then a bard, then the class is too simple, and the dps too low.