Are BRD/MCH A Sub DPS Class (Support DPS) or Are They Just DPS Now?

[MomoOG]

I didn't play ff14 in HW. I raided in ARR and now back in SB. In ARR BRD was basically a sub class in the dps classes (aka dps support). If I remember correctly, it was basically required to be in Raids for its required use of tp/mp abilities because resources were almost guaranteed to run out during the fight. Again I'm not sure if this remained true in HW. Now in SB I've done savage v1 and v2 and at no point do I see the use of these mp/tp refresh abilities being close to required.

If the above is true, why do some people still claim that BRD/MCH only compete against each other for a raid spot? They are no longer a sub class in the dps category that is required. Shouldn't they just be competing with all the other dps for a spot? And yes I do realize that they have other unique support abilities but none of the are "hard" required and many of the other dps classes have support abilities too.

[s3ystic]

TL;DR Currently:
BRD = Support + DPS
MCH = DPS


Longer Explanation:
If you look at the categories on the sheet, BRD and MCH are “Ranged Physical DPS” they generally do less damage than melee DPS, I assume because they have the advantage of long range attacks and mobility. SE wanted to give people a reason to play a lower DPS job beyond just the range advantage, but not equal the damage output of say BLM and RDM. So they gave BRD a bunch of extra buffs the party could benefit from (not just the TP and MP refresh which I agree hardly gets used now.) MCH on the other hand has diverged and offers no such support outside their cross role abilities. Some are assuming this means that MCH is supposed to be more DPS. However MCH is currently trying to carve out an identity again seeing as how BRD can put out damage with less hassle than MCH and MCH has to use more complex rotations to put out the same damage. The many MCH threads you will see for a while are to help suggest MCH as being THE premier Ranged DPS or offer a different kind of support apart from bard (like becoming the debuffer class instead.)

Support wise, aside from shared role abilities Bard can:
+ 2% Critical Hit rate for the party. (Potentially more damage)
+ 15% Direct Hit rate for the party. (Potentially more damage.)
+ 20% Heal rate to a party member with a song
+ Remove a debuff with a song
+ depending on a song being played can: Increase HP by 15%, Reduce physical Vulnerability by 10%, or reduce magic Vulnerability by 10%

Generally if played correctly having a BRD ups everyone's DPS and can pull some emergency support should a healer feel overwhelmed or get snagged by a paralyze or a silence, all the while barely lowering their personal DPS in the process. So they are a benefit to have.

Support wise, aside from shared role abilities Mechanist can:
+ Lower a targets damage by 10%
+ Knockback a target (but do no damage)

Generally you bring a MCH for more DPS, naturally being ranged means they can put on some constant DPS without having to worry about range restrictions so if played correctly they are a benefit to have for their DPS alone. Their Damage debuff is good for popping before a big boss attack. They don't really compete for the spot BRD has anymore and are more in line with the other DPS roles (but at ranged instead.)

[MomoOG]

TL;DR Currently:
BRD = Support + DPS
MCH = DPS

Longer Explanation:
If you look at the categories on the sheet, BRD and MCH are “Ranged Physical DPS” they generally do less damage than melee DPS, I assume because they have the advantage of long range attacks and mobility. SE wanted to give people a reason to play a lower DPS job beyond just the range advantage, but not equal the damage output of say BLM and RDM. So they gave BRD a bunch of extra buffs the party could benefit from (not just the TP and MP refresh which I agree hardly gets used now.) MCH on the other hand has diverged and offers no such support outside their cross role abilities. Some are assuming this means that MCH is supposed to be more DPS. However MCH is currently trying to carve out an identity again seeing as how BRD can put out damage with less hassle than MCH and MCH has to use more complex rotations to put out the same damage. The many MCH threads you will see for a while are to help suggest MCH as being THE premier Ranged DPS or offer a different kind of support apart from bard (like becoming the debuffer class instead.)

Support wise, aside from shared role abilities Bard can:
+2% Critical Hit rate for the party. (Potentially more damage)
+15% Direct Hit rate for the party. (Potentially more damage.)
+ Heal a party member with a song
+ Remove a debuff with a song
+ depending on a song being played can: Increase HP by 15%, Reduce physical Vulnerability by 10%, or reduce magic Vulnerability by 10%

Support wise, aside from shared role abilities Mechanist can:
+ Lower a targets damage by 10%
+ Knockback a target (but do no damage)

Yes I get all of that. My main point was that in ARR BRD did not compete other dps classes for a raid spot because of its unique access to tp/mp refresh abilities. I dunno what the situation was in HW. I get the impression from some people that they think the same situation applies currently for BRD/MCH. This seems to be erroneous thinking because from what I can tell BRD/MCH simply compete with all dps classes for a raid spot now.

For example when it comes to MCH dps/support abilities, most people simply compare it to BRD like some how they are their own separate category.

[Matthew_Fox]

They have both lower dps than other dps, bring both utility.
BRD more utility and if RNGJESUS likes you more dps than MCH.
People consider MCH dead right now. There's been one o4s clear on MCH as far as I know.

[Elnidfse]

For example when it comes to MCH dps/support abilities, most people simply compare it to BRD like some how they are their own separate category.

I hope the current raid mentality doesn't change. I quite like my raid spot. Besides if you consider rDPS increases BRD are equally as useful as a Ninja and the both of them do for a team than what a samurai (for example) can do
But you seem to be saying that DPS should be competing with other DPS? I mean we still have the ever useful disable. Even if trick attack is technically far stronger than hypercharge you can still stack them. And while refresh isn't as king as it used to be it's still sort of good.

If we were competing sorely as a DPS of course MCH would be in a foul place. But we'll be desirable because our tools are useful, which is why we have our own category... Right?

They have both lower dps than other dps, bring both utility.
BRD more utility and if RNGJESUS likes you more dps than MCH.
People consider MCH dead right now. There's been one o4s clear on MCH as far as I know.

Well I mean it's not that dead. It's just returned to being one of the lowest played jobs. The changes missed the mark and players aren't going to play something that has a terrible "flavor and fun to effectiveness" ratio. While BRDs learned to play the flute MCH slap their lunchbox. Besides I don't think I can exactly blame them. The idea of waiting an entire raid tier ala stormblood is not appealing. It won't be until august before we get another patch/pass again at a minimum. And even if we got a change again before that, there's a strong chance it will equate to absolutely nothing.

[s3ystic]

Yes I get all of that. My main point was that in ARR BRD did not compete other dps classes for a raid spot because of its unique access to tp/mp refresh abilities. I dunno what the situation was in HW. I get the impression from some people that they think the same situation applies currently for BRD/MCH. This seems to be erroneous thinking because from what I can tell BRD/MCH simply compete with all dps classes for a raid spot now.

For example when it comes to MCH dps/support abilities, most people simply compare it to BRD like some how they are their own separate category.

Well with that perspective, you would be correct, they are just another DPS. Nothing more to add.

The reason why people are prone to separate the two is because SE gave them their own category, even separated them on the character sheet. They are ranged. So it is just natural for them to do so, after all they do not share the same cross roll abilities either. So while they are just other DPS they will naturally bring other abilities to the group.

However to reiterate, from the simple point of view, they are just another DPS, yes. However it is an oversimplification.

[HoLoFoNo]

Oh in HW, BRD did compete with MCH (after MCH buffs) depending on if your main dps was physical or magical or just due to the ranged DPS preference. They both had a way to refresh mana/TP and BRD had foes for magic damage up while MCH had hypercharge for Physical or Magical damage up (since no other class provided physical damage up as well as MCH being physical itself, Physical damage up was used 99% of the time).

This has changed in stormblood a bit, where I think MCH lost its mana/TP regen and hypercharge became damage up for everyone but the effect was halved. Now, because the way MP/TP was changed, as you say for most situations these resources aren't really a problem anymore. However, BRD is still the biggest rDPS contributor while having low dps ceiling compared to the rest (according to the SSS HP pools, it is 9th/9). MCH is just over half the rDPS contribution of BRD while being like 20 DPS higher (8th/9). I'm guessing the stigma still exists from ARR/HW days coupled with the role skills which kinda left those classes in that catergory (with a new friend in DRG, kinda).

Oh yeah also DRG losing 10% piercing resistance down to 5% means that these classes lost a little bit of potential damage also contributes a little to why they are no longer mandatory.

[MomoOG]

I hope the current raid mentality doesn't change. I quite like my raid spot. Besides if you consider rDPS increases BRD are equally as useful as a Ninja and the both of them do for a team than what a samurai (for example) can do
But you seem to be saying that DPS should be competing with other DPS? I mean we still have the ever useful disable. Even if trick attack is technically far stronger than hypercharge you can still stack them. And while refresh isn't as king as it used to be it's still sort of good.

If we were competing sorely as a DPS of course MCH would be in a foul place. But we'll be desirable because our tools are useful, which is why we have our own category... Right?



Well I mean it's not that dead. It's just returned to being one of the lowest played jobs. The changes missed the mark and players aren't going to play something that has a terrible "flavor and fun : dps ratio". While BRDs learned to play the flute MCH slap their lunchbox

I'm not saying that they should be. I'm simply saying that is the current reality. The only reason to take a BRD/MCH over another dps class is because the sum of their personal dps + indirect support dps abilities is superior to another dps classes sum of personal dps + indirection support dps abilities. Now we can argue that we always want to have both ranged and melee dps (I'm not sure if that is true tho) and in that case at the least BRD/MCH compete with all the other current ranged dps classes for a spot. I just don't see why people still think BRD/MCH is its own category that for balance discussion can only be compared to each other.

Like if a BRD is brought to a raid right now it is because the sum of its damage output (personal and from support abilities) makes it desirable and not because it is a "required" class.

[s3ystic]

I'm not saying that they should be. I'm simply saying that is the currently reality. The only reason to take a BRD/MCH over another dps class is because the sum of their personal dps + indirect support dps abilities is superior to another dps classes sum of personal dps + indirection support dps abilities. Now we can argue that we always want to have both ranged and melee dps (I'm not sure if that is true tho) and in that case at the list BRD/MCH compete with all the other current ranged dps classes for a spot. I just don't see why people still think BRD/MCH is its own category that for balance discussion can only be compared to each other.

Like if a BRD is brought to a raid right now it is because the sum of its damage output (personal and from support abilities) makes it desirable and not because it is a "required" class.

I cant think of a "required" class honestly. What are the required classes? The meta?

[Elnidfse]

Like if a BRD is brought to a raid right now it is because the sum of its damage output (personal and from support abilities) makes it desirable and not because it is a "required" class.

I think of a BRD like a catch all. So you have various jobs that raise only one type of damage with the exclusion of Ninja. But a BRD can raise the damage everybody can do and can positively make both healers life easier. Sure these tools aren't as useful as they were but they're still useful. And from what I heard raid defensive abilities are a must for 3 and especially 4 so I'm looking forward to that.

If people's mindset changed on the necessity of rDPS (like was the case with susan and lakshmi) than we're going to end up in a really bad spot really quickly. Which might indeed happen anyways. That said I think that BRD/MCH are great for progression and do things no other job can replicate. And so should still be thought of in it's own category in that aspect because they really are worlds apart. Like I don't want to undersell dismantle, it's great! What non tank job has access to something to reduce raid damage taken that will be up for most aoes.

I cant think of a "required" class honestly. What are the required classes? The meta?

He's talking about how generally people will want/ wanted a rdps for their support which hasn't changed since ever.