So...Can a SCH tell me how SCH's are right now relative to WHM and AST?

[Silver-Strider]

First off, I disagree with the notion of Lustrate and Indom being emergency heals. Both should be used on cooldown when possible to maximize your MP and DPS efficiency.

With Scholar’s current toolkit now having Fey Union, Excogitation, and Quickened Aetherflow – in addition to Succor, Sacred Soil, Aldo, and Fey Covenant – I’d completely disagree and say that Scholar is now more proactive than ever.

With Fey Union, you must use it when the tank is near full HP, and can expect it to keep their health steady for a not insignificant amount of time (until the next dungeon pull or until the next raidwide AoE when it’s time for Whispering Dawn). If you wait too long you’ll find that it’s not enough to top the tank off in time.

With Excog, you have to plan with your cohealer which segments are appropriate for its use, apply it at the right time, and then not heal (i.e. DPS instead) so that it goes off effectively.

With Quickened Aetherflow, Scholars now need to be much more attentive to their stack usage otherwise you’ll find yourself sitting on Aetherflow with no MP. You have to plan your heal stacks such that the rest can be used on Energy Drain, and you now have to use your stacks 25% more quickly.

All of these abilities are in addition to what we had in 3.x, when we already had to use Succor wisely otherwise face MP issues, proactively Aldo incoming busters, determine which damage was magic-based and Covenant appropriately, etc. A Scholar using all of these tools is in no way underpowered in comparison with the other healers, who simply can’t do any of this without losing DPS uptime.

I will admit that Excogitation is a proactive heal, however, I can't count neither Fey Union nor Quickened Aetherflow as such. Fey Union is gated by the Fairy Gauge, of which you need to build up by using your stacks. That alone means it cannot be used proactively until much later into an encounter, and even then it's going to be used as a more reactive. As for Quickened Aetherflow, this is something that more proves my original point of SCH being made into a Reactive Healer than a Proactive healer, as by your own words, Lustrate is our "spammable" Cure 2, something that should be used to maximize our DPS and MP efficiency, and Quickened Aetherflow is actively rewarding us for doing so but since the majority of our Aetherflow abilities have CDs or ill suited to be spammed, we don't have much choice in the matter as to what we spam, leaving Lustrate as the only real option in the matter.

Your spammable heal is Lustrate. Don’t know how many times I can say it. You get 3 every 45s, which should be used as such:
Lustrate/Excog == Indom >>>>> Energy Drain >>> Sacred Soil.

The instant single target heals from WHM & AST have a much longer cooldown in comparison:

WHM: Tetragrammaton (1 per 60s); Benediction (1 per 3m)
AST: Essential Dignity (1 per 40s)
SCH: Lustrate (3 per 45s – can be boosted by Dissipation; shares resource stack w/ Indom)

Aetherflow stacks are shared of course, but with no Energy Drains and party damage you can still Indom (which should be enough) and still have 2 Lustrates available. One of these is enough to keep any party member in comfortable health-territory in almost any content in the game (I know because I’ve saved party members in O3S plenty of times with a single Lustrate).

Furthermore, because WHM/AST have only one on a moderate cooldown, the risk of using either outside of any planned usage is far greater. Let me explain:

In content: While using Gravity/Holy/Stone IV/Malefic III you let the tank’s health get quite low to maximize Essential Dignity, but a rogue DPS simultaneously takes an AoE to the face. If you quickly ED that DPS knowing that party damage is incoming (perhaps this is the final boss in Ala Mhigo), you’ve now increased your quickest response time to the tank to 2.5 seconds. You have to pick one.

This situation arises in numerous content, both serious raid and dungeon content, and in those situations WHM/AST is always faced with a choice, to then suffer the consequences later. But Scholar (stacks willing) can always do both. So to say that Lustrate is underpowered in comparison is not seeing the full picture.

Your example is bias towards SCH and thus completely neglecting the rest of WHM/AST tools, just to make SCH look better than it realistically is but if we're going for a REALISTIC context, let me put it in a more factual setting.

Now, if in a situation a WHM/AST is using Holy/Gravity, a SCH should be using Bane and last I checked, Bane uses an Aetherflow stack so we're down to 2. That would remove Energy Drain from your supposed optimal usage of stacks. Now, let's say we use Sacred Soil (2nd stack gone). WHM has Asylum, AST has Earthly Star (2 abilities you failed to mention btw) All act in a similar fashion of reducing healer strain, just in different methods. Sacred Soil does it by reducing damage, Asylum does it by granting a regen and Earthly Star is just a time bomb heal that AST can set off whenever. Eventually, you'll need to heal, of which AST is currently in the lead as Earthly Star already did that, so WHM and SCH use Tetra/Lustrate. Guess what? All 3 stacks are now gone buddy. You no longer have your safety net to DPS and Aetherflow might still be on CD. So, SCH stops DPS to Heal. WHM still has Assize and AST still has ED so can DPS for a little longer.

Let's go to a boss setting now.
Stone4/Malefic3/Broil2 are going off, letting the tank get low. DPS gets hit by X just as a group attack is coming.
AST = Lightspeed Helios/Benefic -> ED
SCH Double Lustrate or Lustrate + Indom
WHM = Presence of Mind Medica 1/2 + PI -> Tetra
All three jobs have the necessary tools to do the same exact thing. AST/WHM just have to use more of their toolkit but that's not exactly a problem because, unlike SCH, their toolkit isn't handcuffed to Aetherflow stacks

Not having to use a GCD (or as you put it – needing to use an oGCD) is a benefit not a detriment. I don’t think I should have to explain the value of the GCD.]

It's not a detriment, it's just that SCH is more limited in this department BECAUSE it doesn't have a stronger GCD than Physick and had no choice in the matter and unlike WHM/AST, are at the mercy of Aetherflow to grant them a heal WHM/AST have naturally, on top of their oGCD to heal more effectively. It's not a matter of using oGCD as a detriment, it's that SCH has to use their oGCD to make up for their lack of a Cure 2/Benefic 2 whereas WHM/AST do not.

[Iveriad]

Loool Sacred Soil. I'm guessing actual Scholars have stopped posting in this thread if this is what people are coming up with.

Sacred Soil is useful during big pulls and major AoE damage like Ukehi.
And Sacred Soil might also give you a free Succor which is great.

[Mirakumi]

After clearing Savage 2 on SCH its not as bad as they make it out to be. Our shields and AOE heal prove great help. The only problem is that we can't ADOL on s2 because the crit bug will cause the knockback not to go off and kill pt. lolol But yeah SCH can do just as good. o/ People tell me fuck SCH all the time, but I see SCH clearing SV3 so obviously if its so bad why is it able to clear content.

[Enla]

After clearing Savage 2 on SCH its not as bad as they make it out to be. Our shields and AOE heal prove great help. The only problem is that we can't ADOL on s2 because the crit bug will cause the knockback not to go off and kill pt. lolol But yeah SCH can do just as good. o/ People tell me fuck SCH all the time, but I see SCH clearing SV3 so obviously if its so bad why is it able to clear content.

It was pretty bad at the start of SB, even when taking into account the changes in playstyle we all needed to make. Now however? I think it's just fine. There are a few tweaks that need to be made, notably to Selene, but while it's always been viable it now no longer feels like a chore to play. Which is all I honestly wanted.

[RajaVamberaux]

Fey Union is gated by the Fairy Gauge, of which you need to build up by using your stacks. That alone means it cannot be used proactively until much later into an encounter, and even then it's going to be used as a more reactive.

Much later in the encounter? You mean after the 15s it takes to blow three stacks in the opener and hit Aetherflow? That's not a long time to me. In O3S, watch your fairy gauge and you'll realize it's already at 90/100 when the first Game is played. And that's only about 75s seconds in (meaning use it or it’ll soon be wasted).

Also, it's not a 'reactive ability'. Fey Union usage should be planned just like all of Scholar's other abilities: in tank-focused downtime between Whispering Dawns, and/or alternating it with Fey Covenant, especially for dungeon pulls. Its still-long (but cute) animation means it can't be used reactively. You should plan its use with your co-healer, or at the very least do it at the same time every time with a PUG.

As for Quickened Aetherflow, this is something that more proves my original point of SCH being made into a Reactive Healer than a Proactive healer, as by your own words, Lustrate is our "spammable" Cure 2, something that should be used to maximize our DPS and MP efficiency, and Quickened Aetherflow is actively rewarding us for doing so but since the majority of our Aetherflow abilities have CDs or ill suited to be spammed, we don't have much choice in the matter as to what we spam, leaving Lustrate as the only real option in the matter.

My point was that because Aetherflow is off cooldown faster now than ever, and also this calculation factors into Scholar’s MP capacity, players are punished now more significantly for unwisely using stacks. This reinforces the Scholar’s tactician playstyle, where you need to think carefully about which stacks are for healing, and how many you have in reserve for emergencies or Energy Drain.

If your tank is getting chunked, you should plan on using an Excog/Lustrate there every time, knowing that leaves you with two other stacks. Those stacks should be saved for a weaving opportunity or until ~7s on Aetherflow’s CD. In other words, you should know how many (Energy Drain or Lustrate) you have to “spam”.

factual settings

We can use your example. The problem with it is the Scholar in your setting isn’t playing very well. Refer back to the Aetherflow Stack hierarchy. Why are you placing Sacred Soil down when the only incoming damage is on the tank? So now I’m up one stack on you. Additionally, if this is the first pull, we should have 3 stacks in the bank and Aetherflow off cooldown. So now I’m up four. If it’s a later pull (perhaps between packs, or between Aetherflows in a raid), Aetherflow should be on CD, and I need to use these stacks anyways or MP is wasted.

You also neglect (when mentioning Asylum/Earthly Star), that in the same situations Scholar has fairy which is Roused 33% of the time.

In the boss setting you said ‘Double Lustrate or Indom + Lustrate’ but we have three stacks. There wouldn’t be bane in those situations. So I’m up one.

In both cases, Scholar still has stacks to play with (since I found some to use more optimally), but WHM/AST have none and now have to readjust their planned usage of the ED/Tetra. So if any crap hits the fan for the next 40s, and a strong, instant single target or group heal could save it, Scholar will usually be best positioned to do so.

It's not a detriment, it's just that SCH is more limited in this department BECAUSE it doesn't have a stronger GCD than Physick and had no choice in the matter and unlike WHM/AST, are at the mercy of Aetherflow to grant them a heal WHM/AST have naturally, on top of their oGCD to heal more effectively. It's not a matter of using oGCD as a detriment, it's that SCH has to use their oGCD to make up for their lack of a Cure 2/Benefic 2 whereas WHM/AST do not.

Personally, I believe the three healers are more balanced now than they ever have been. I’m also not trying to say Scholar doesn’t have to “push more buttons to do the same thing” - it does. I just want to encourage people to see the advantages of the planning & micromanagement, and the way in which the current toolkit reinforces this archetype more than “shield healing” ever did.

[Silver-Strider]

Much later in the encounter? You mean after the 15s it takes to blow three stacks in the opener and hit Aetherflow? That's not a long time to me. In O3S, watch your fairy gauge and you'll realize it's already at 90/100 when the first Game is played. And that's only about 75s seconds in (meaning use it or it’ll soon be wasted).

Also, it's not a 'reactive ability'. Fey Union usage should be planned just like all of Scholar's other abilities: in tank-focused downtime between Whispering Dawns, and/or alternating it with Fey Covenant, especially for dungeon pulls. Its still-long (but cute) animation means it can't be used reactively. You should plan its use with your co-healer, or at the very least do it at the same time every time with a PUG.

Let's me put it another way. Fey Union is a very potent regen effect but comes at several disadvantages. Too early, and you end up wasting a tick or 2, too late and the person dies. I try not to classify regen effects as proactive or reactive but my opinion on Fey Union is that, since it requires some sort of build it, it's more reactive as a result, since I can't just put it up at the start and forget about like a WHM or AST regen ability. The cost involved with doing so would be wasting a fairly potent heal tick that would be better suited after a bit of damage has occurred, like when the tank is at the 75% range as opposed to the 90+ range.

My point was that because Aetherflow is off cooldown faster now than ever, and also this calculation factors into Scholar’s MP capacity, players are punished now more significantly for unwisely using stacks. This reinforces the Scholar’s tactician playstyle, where you need to think carefully about which stacks are for healing, and how many you have in reserve for emergencies or Energy Drain.

If your tank is getting chunked, you should plan on using an Excog/Lustrate there every time, knowing that leaves you with two other stacks. Those stacks should be saved for a weaving opportunity or until ~7s on Aetherflow’s CD. In other words, you should know how many (Energy Drain or Lustrate) you have to “spam”.

The problem here is that Lustrate is SCH's big heal. If the tank is taking that level of damage that would require us to "spam" Lustrate, if by the end the tank is still taking that level of damage, we're essentially stuck spamming Physick to make up for that loss. We can't view it as a spammable because it has that limit and a situation can go south at any moment. I love Excogitation because it's a safety net proactive heal that suits SCH but since it only procs at the 50% threshold and since I'm not always sure how much damage the tank will be taking after that point, I'm given a choice to either stop what I was doing (most likely DPSing) and be a precautionary healer, or keep DPSing and use Lustrate when it's too low again. There is a lot of factors to consider as well, such as Tank's gear, CD usage by the tank, how long the pull is taking due to poor DPS,etc. that make relying on a skill such as Lustrate very problematic.

We can use your example. The problem with it is the Scholar in your setting isn’t playing very well. Refer back to the Aetherflow Stack hierarchy. Why are you placing Sacred Soil down when the only incoming damage is on the tank? So now I’m up one stack on you. Additionally, if this is the first pull, we should have 3 stacks in the bank and Aetherflow off cooldown. So now I’m up four. If it’s a later pull (perhaps between packs, or between Aetherflows in a raid), Aetherflow should be on CD, and I need to use these stacks anyways or MP is wasted.

You also neglect (when mentioning Asylum/Earthly Star), that in the same situations Scholar has fairy which is Roused 33% of the time.

In the boss setting you said ‘Double Lustrate or Indom + Lustrate’ but we have three stacks. There wouldn’t be bane in those situations. So I’m up one.

In both cases, Scholar still has stacks to play with (since I found some to use more optimally), but WHM/AST have none and now have to readjust their planned usage of the ED/Tetra. So if any crap hits the fan for the next 40s, and a strong, instant single target or group heal could save it, Scholar will usually be best positioned to do so.

I purposefully neglected the Roused Fairy because it's not much different from WHM/AST Regen effects with the main difference being that Eos is on a much longer CD and lasts slightly less than its competitors. As for the Sacred Soil, I was going by your own flow chart of Lustrate/Exco = Indom -> Energy Drain -> Sacred Soil. You can replace Sacred Soil with Energy Drain/Bane/whatever but the stack is still gone regardless.

The boss scenario was not intended to dictate Aetherflow usage but to demonstrate the flaw in your own example that a WHM/AST would be harder pressed in your supposed scenario than a SCH, which just isn't true at all. You're forgetting that the majority of your Aetherflow abilities have CDs, with only Lustrate and Energy Drain being "spammable" so even if you DID have a stack to spare, you're only healing option would be Lustrate at that point since everything else is on CD for at least 30 seconds. Another thing to consider is WHM and their Lily mechanics that reduce the CD on several of their oGCD. Asylum can be back in a minute, Assize and Tetra can be back within 45 seconds depending on how many Lilies were used and while unreliable, Secret of the Lilies 2 does help as well in CD management on WHM. I've gotten Assize within 30 seconds of each other and while that is uncommon, it's still something that can realistically happen.

Personally, I believe the three healers are more balanced now than they ever have been. I’m also not trying to say Scholar doesn’t have to “push more buttons to do the same thing” - it does. I just want to encourage people to see the advantages of the planning & micromanagement, and the way in which the current toolkit reinforces this archetype more than “shield healing” ever did.

I won't argue that the healers aren't more balanced (despite AST still being over tuned AF) nor am I'm saying that SCH is terrible either but I am saying that the skill ceiling for SCH has been risen tremendously after SB and that it might not be the ideal healer for someone that isn't prepared for the amount of micromanaging or planning it requires. I mean, we've gone back and forth about this for several pages now that anyone looking at it with no idea how to play SCH would immediately avoid it just because it sounds like a chore and a half to play it even remotely effectively, which is an indisputable truth now more than ever.

[loreleidiangelo]

SCH is fine, but I enjoy it less than I used to. Its playstyle is increasingly mirroring that of the other healers, and the two aspects of the Job that I enjoy most (barriers and pet management) have been consistently de-emphasized since the end of 2.x.

Putting aside for the moment questions of what was or wasn't OP, the fact remains that the faerie makes less of an impact and AST barriers are measurably superior.

TL;DR: SCH is fine, but it isn't the same. Your mileage may vary. Some people may even like it better now. *shrug*

This is definitely a concern, as an old old OLD SCH main who dropped the job with both AST's release (I love buffing people) and 3.0's SCH design. Someone else said they thought that 3.x and 4.x were better for healers than 2.x because in 2.x the two healers were more niche, but I think that was a great design philosophy and when SCH got a bunch of reactive AOE heals in HW it just pushed the healers even closer to homogenization in the name of "balance". Now we get endless threads about "WHM needs utility because the other healers have it" or "ASTs need to have stronger shields because SCH has the fairy" or whatever. Everyone basically wants healers to have an answer to every problem in their kit, but then question why there's so much bickering over things like "utility" and the "healer DPS meta" - newsflash, when throughput is designed to be pretty much more than adequate for both single-target AND AOE situations across the board, there's not much else to separate them but those two metrics.

I still feel like SCH's Heavensward additions were a knee-jerk reaction to people who couldn't handle trials in the DF going tits-up without a WHM's AOE healing to brute force them through. I still remember the crying over dual SCHs in Titan HM, when the primary sales group on my server was solo-healing it with one. I also feel like AST's entire bastardized lazy "hybrid" design was absolutely done out of fear of one of the healers having a bad "niche" for upcoming raids and thus left out...hilariously, AST backfired so much that there was basically ALWAYS "one healer left behind" from 3.0 to 4.05.

I feel like future healers are going to be just as predictable and limited in their design sadly so long as damage dispensation and lack of clear, definable healing niches remains the same. (Let's be real, is there anything in a raid other than single-target or AOE spike damage in predictable intervals ATM? I can easily take Esuna off my bar for raids because there's nothing meaningful to cleanse and never will be; RIP Selene's unique utility in that area. There's no meaningful room for an efficient sustain healer to shine either, as everything is just brute forcing HP bars then brute forcing the boss's HP bar DOWN for a few globals after that.)

[Dregenfox]

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Def agree with everything you said - unfortunately all mmo's eventually gravitate towards class homogenization because diversity/uniqueness = imbalance and imbalance = unhappy players who complain on forums. It's not necessarily a bad thing though - this ensures all players have viable classes to play while still feeling somewhat unique.

[Yuyuka3]

snip

Omg, I agree with you 100%. I always got a thick neck when some idiot went "WHM got Cure III, we need something like it because we need everything WHM has!". No. No, you don't. You need your own separate skills. Yes, I was among the people wanting utility for WHM. I still think that WHM needs utility, because if two other healers can heal just as well as the third, but also bring utility the third cannot, why bring the third if there's no advantage in doing that? Jury is still out for me if that situation won't return later on in the patches (my guess is it will, tbh).

In the beginning, you had WHM as a direct healer and SCH as the mitigation healer; now, all healers shifted closer towards each other, and that is NOT a good development. Also, that lazy hybrid healer design of AST sucks. They should have introduced it as its own thing instead of a hard to balance copy cat of the other two healers...