Is anyone else dying to get to Garlemald?

[Cilia]

Oh hey, look at that! More ad hominem attacks and doubt being misinterpreted as dismissal of canon! Niiiiice.

You don't declare your own righteousness, especially after dismissing everyone else as self-righteous. To do so is the epitome of arrogance and hypocrisy. History will vindicate you, or it will not.

"[O]verly emotional biased arguments that are largely based around flawed concepts of modern day morality being applied to a fictional setting."
-You've constructed a narrative that paints Garlemald as a victim when in reality they've been victimizing everyone around them for roughly half a century. There is no fact that justifies their actions - you excuse them by constantly citing how they were pushed around before developing their magitek and using tu quoque fallacies to deflect attention away from their atrocities. The Garleans have more than made up for being pushed around, and Limsa's (etc.) transgressions don't subtract from their own - address the criticism levied at Garlemald instead of criticizing others in turn, please. As far as I can tell this fictional setting also runs on a largely modern sense of morality - the only exception is that prostitution is not entirely frowned upon.

Everyone is biased, as well. Not acknowledging one's own demonstrates a thorough lack of self-awareness.

Everyone is throwing spin on the Empire. Everyone is conjecturing and speculating. (No guarantees of a Larsa analogue, yet it's been declared a certainty!) Everyone has subjective interpretations. That said the game itself, by and large, paints Garlemald's philosophy and actions in a very negative light. That may change, but there is no guarantee it will.

Yes, even despite Regula being a decent person and besties with Varis.

(Also Ala Mhigo was completed in 6AE 1335. The Garleans were pushed from southern to northern Ilsabard circa 6AE 800. There is almost literally no way any Eorzean nation could be responsible... and yet... apparently it's acceptable for Garlemald to invade and conquer and call us savages. Huh.)

Final note: YES, I FINALLY GOT THE MAGITEK PREDATOR! It actually does exist and it flies using rocket engines! So worth the effort...

[MicahZerrshia]

A lil off topic of the current conversation...

But I cannot wait to get away from Garlemald...and Primals...and Ascians. I mean, they have been basically the main antagonists since 2010-ish. Sure the Garleans haven't played a huge role up til now, but still. How long can this conflict go on and still keep the story interesting? The only saving grace of the SB version of Garlemald is that now they seem like true almost-evil villains, instead of just believing themselves to be culturally superior and trying to "tame the savage".

As a legacy player it's just getting played out and a new sort of conflict and story would be a breath of fresh air.

[Big_Panda]

Sure, why not.

Twelve above know the WoL need to unleash some pent-up aggression and it can not exactly be towards Eorzea.

[Grimr]

not really i would prefer mercydia first garlemald second

[Alleo]

@Lauront: Why do you feel the need to use so many personal attacks?

Also the lore team did create someone like Zenos because people saw someone like Gaius in a way too positive light and nearly everything that happened in SB put Garlemald in a bad light. So how exactly is my opinion against the lore team?

And Garlemald may be more nuanced later but right now they are painted in a very bad light. This is all we are talking about..that the Garlemald right now is just simply a bad empire that do a lot of inhuman stuff..we more than once said that this might change and I do not have a grudge against the citizens of Garlemald because we simply dont know how they are and no whole race can be simply bad.

I wrote down a whole big post about all the stuff that Garlemald did in SB. (Yes even some of the more positive things..even if they are really rare) Yet you dont really take these points and argue about it, no its more about "but Eorzea did x" or "Varis is a friend to Regula". It might be true but it does not change the things that they did and that Cilia (in way better words than I can ever write) and I wrote down. These are facts, simply as that. Its a fact that they do experiments on their own people and prisoners, its a fact that they tried to create a poison to kill the citizens of Eorzea with it, its a fact that they shot their own people in the tower, its a fact that they want to Genocide the beast tribes because of the primals. And many more of the points we wrote down.

We might look at it in a much more negative view than you but it does not change, that these things happened in the story..

So please tell me where exactly we have ignored lore and facts, and no I am not talking about the bit with Varis and Regula, I am talking about the general topic.

[Kallera]

Fine, "They are an enemy that should be destroyed", is that what you want me to say? That they are nothing more than a literary dragon to slay, and there is nothing that should be considered past that, since a goddess has selected us for victory?

Maybe there is nothing to look forward to regarding these people, maybe I am fooling myself, but If I see one more rebel group hiding in a sewer somewhere that we must elevate to power, I think I'm going to toss something.

Hien's idea of scaring the imperial provinces from rebellions their own territories, don't this sound a lot like sponsoring terrorism?

One of the problems I have with Eorzea is that I see the ultimate goal being not a world totally dependent on the character's strength to deliver it, but a world that can survive without them, I just don't see that future in the freedom that they so cherish.

[Hinoto-no-Ryuji]

Fine, "They are an enemy that should be destroyed", is that what you want me to say? That they are nothing more than a literary dragon to slay, and there is nothing that should be considered past that, since a goddess has selected us for victory?

Maybe there is nothing to look forward to regarding these people, maybe I am fooling myself, but If I see one more rebel group hiding in a sewer somewhere that we must elevate to power, I think I'm going to snap.

Hien's idea of scaring the imperial provinces from rebellions their own territories, don't this sound a lot like sponsoring terrorism?

My dog in this fight exists somewhere between the two sides (the mental loopholes the one side jumps through to put Garlean aggression on the same level as other grey aspects of this game's world are almost comical; on the other hand, I don't think it's fair to reduce them to black-and-white-capital-E-Evil either, and I'm very eager to witness their civilian society and want to meet moderate elements as well), but terrorism is specifically targeting a civilian population to undermine an opposing side through the use of fear. Hien is not doing this - Garlean civilians don't live in Doma, and nothing he's doing is targeting Doman civilians, so no. No, it's not sponsoring terrorism. It's fighting back against an invasive military state. He has just as much right to do that as Garlemald had to seize his land in the first place, at the VERY least.

[Cilia]

---

I'd like to think I've made it clear I'm on the same level... I've never called Garlemald out-and-out evil and I do hope to find more moderate individuals in their populace if we go there, but their endless campaign of conquest is unconscionable and I'm tired of hearing excuses for it.

[Kallera]

I'd like to think I've made it clear I'm on the same level... I've never called Garlemald out-and-out evil and I do hope to find more moderate individuals in their populace if we go there, but their endless campaign of conquest is unconscionable and I'm tired of hearing excuses for it.

I do not like being on your side, however much of an ultimatum it has been by the plot.

[Theodric]

Thankfully there's been numerous examples of moderate Garleans - despite not even having touched upon territory held by Garleans that are not simply conquered nations on the fringes of the Empire. the issue here is that even when we do see moderate Garleans the goalposts are moved so that their redeeming elements are lessened. Such as it is with the casting of doubt on the strength of the friendship between Varis and Regula. It's firmly established in the canon lore and showcased both in-game and outside of it within the lore book.

Then, of course, there's the aspect of morality - which in itself is very subjective. Not only in a fictional setting but the real world as well. It's why laws, history, diplomacy and political issues are very complicated - much more so than many would like to admit. Zenos is actually the first to be completely rotten within Garlemald, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever so it's not as if he's representative of the nation as a whole nor was he even working towards Garlemald's benefit as evidenced by both his own words and his actions. Every other Garlean we have encountered has had various levels of reasoning for doing what they do. In some cases they're honourable and heroic like Gaius and Regula. In other cases they're broken like Livia.