Is anyone else dying to get to Garlemald?

[Alleo]

Well, after all this, i'm not moving from my original point, I would like to enter Garlemeld, but not as some conqueror. The semantics are just depressing and just make me not want to play.

Oh, that'd feel great.^^

Not to sound mean but you are against conquering Garlemald because that would be horrible but yet you would feel great if you could go over to the side of the empire and conquer the world?

This is not meant as an attack but really curious how its not okay from one side but fine from the others?

[Kallera]

A combination of grievance and annoyance with the changes of the setting and the character. If we destroyed the Garlean state, the world would seem flat to me, reduced to republics and all kowtowing to their destructive savior. I've argued for the beast tribes when they were summoning primals and people called for their destruction. It's not really resolved, just a thing that's there but ok because the Warrior of Light is around. And its proving no better as we continue to be the Warrior of light. I've had enough of empire destroying and regime change while realizing that all of this is impossible for normal folk, and simply because your character is special. I'm sick of single note stormtroopers being lined up as fodder. I'm tired of chaos being labeled as easy and faultless to inflict as unkillable beings from nations that do not, and cannot change.

If I'm going to play as the person forced to do things with coworkers they does not gel with in a game that, at times, feels akin to work without end, then sign me up for the baddies.

Otherwise fine! Have your war, but destroy it all.

tdlr: My sense of disbelief for eorzea and my character is broken. It is not a question of morality, when you are taken out of the setting and just stop caring for the day you are brought back.

[Alleo]

Thanks for answering my question.

But wouldnt the world be even more flat if the empire rules it all? I mean they see belief as a reason for primal summoning (otherwise why forbid it) so any different culture, belief, way of living would be forbidden. There would be no true freedom, only the way of living from the Garlean people. Everyone, even if they want to or not, would be forced to live their life like Garlemald wants. Also lets not forget that elementals still exist and if Garlemald would take over Gridania and destroy the forest they would strike back. Maybe the people of Gridania would even give them some energy to help them with it, out of fear for having to live under their rule. The last time the elementals were really angry a calamity happened.

You would go around and kill all beast man tribes (even those that you helped in the story and that does not want to create a primal), so you would be part of true Genocide. Then you would truly start to kill innocent people as the WoL and not only out of pure necessity or self-defense.

I would feel better if we help with turning Garlemald into a better government, where conquering and mass killing is not necessary and where we will fight together against the ascians that are the main problem. And if the people see that Garlemald is no treat for their lives and that they show need to conquer their countries and take away their freedom, This way I would gladly visit Garlemald itself and see their city with less negative eyes. Also then their way of living and their culture would simply be theirs and would be interesting to see but at least other cultures would also still exist around the world.

Will there ever be true peace with no conflict? I dont think so but that would also not be quite realistic anyway.

[Kallera]

@Alleo I just get sick of the setting. You don't have to tell me your stance again. I just get sick of being involved stood at the front, and told who to kill and hearing how "good is not soft".

I'd rather not be involved, I want to believe in peace but the msq involves playing the one character that cannot not be involved, ever.

I'd rather be roleplaying.

[Theodric]

I'd say it's as simple as Garlemald not being the 'bad guys'. There's a difference between villains and antagonists as far as I'm concerned. The former are irredeemable and the latter are simply individuals who are opposed to the protagonists due to differences in opinions. In a setting such as this where the world is incredibly messed up already it is completely understandable as to why some individuals and factions take the route of well intentioned extremism. The writers themselves are not painting Garlemald as irredeemable - just like they did not choose to paint Ishgard or the Dravanians as irredeemable.

It's largely biased players doing that due to a bizarre obsession with trying to erect a pedestal to stand atop and claim moral superiority. Aside from it being a fictional setting morality is by no means a simple matter to discuss. Just like law and politics it's all very nuanced. Murder and theft may be against the law - and rightly so - but individual cases may very well be handled differently due to the circumstances involved. Someone stealing a TV for the sake of greed is going to be handled differently to someone who steals food to feed their starving family. Someone who murders another person in cold blood is going to be treated differently to someone who kills in self defence or out of vengeance for years of abuse.

Now, applying that mentality on a large scale...we have Garlemald. They seek to save the world as a whole and eliminate the threat of Primals/Eikons. A noble enough goal and one the protagonists share. The only difference is the methods involved - with Garlemald willing to go to extremes to achieve their objective.

...and the only reason they do go to such extremes is because they do not have the luxury of being able to fall back on the Warrior of Light to solve their problems like the Eorzeans and Domans do. If Garlemald is going to be reformed then the Eorzeans themselves need to acknowledge the nuances involved and the reasons behind their actions. Garleans only came to take such an aggressive policy in the first place due to years and years of abuse and being pushed around so much that they were forced from fertile territory and forced to carve out a living for themselves in a wasteland. It kept their numbers low, it forced them to become hardened and driven by efficiency and pragmatism. They reclaimed their territory upon gaining access to Magitek. Then they expanded further.

There is a cycle of hatred that needs to be broken by both sides much like with the war between the Dravanians and the Ishgardians. Continuing to push for war with Garlemald and claiming it to be 'just' simply proves their fears correct - that 'savages' will seek to take all that they hold dear.

Then, of course, there's the simple matter that it probably isn't a good idea to try and push such a powerful organisation into a corner in the first place. Desperation brings out the worst in people, after all as we have seen many times before.

I agree with Kallera in regards to wanting to seek peace. At the very least, I want to see at least one of the protagonists make a point out of trying to secure peace between Garlemald and Eorzea. Preferably more, because it's getting tiresome seeing them complain about losing their allies to Garlemald's forces when they themselves are doing nothing to try and reach out. Zenos could not be reasoned with, obviously - but others such as Baut and Regula could. There's no reason for them to assume that all Garleans are unreasonable. They already know from Ishgard that things are not nearly so simple or obvious as they appear.

...but that isn't brought up. It's treated like a self contained story. Nobody says 'we put an end to a thousand year war, we achieved the impossible...now let us band together and find a way to resolve this new conflict'.

...and they really should because realistically taking on Garlemald should not be so simple as it has been presented thus far. As a conflict it has also gone on for much less time than the bitter war between the Ishgardians and the Dravanians and as such the possibility of peace should not be seen as a lofty, out of reach goal. Not. After. Ishgard.

[Lauront]

...and they really should because realistically taking on Garlemald should not be so simple as it has been presented thus far. As a conflict it has also gone on for much less time than the bitter war between the Ishgardians and the Dravanians and as such the possibility of peace should not be seen as a lofty, out of reach goal. Not. After. Ishgard.

Let's be honest, without the WOL and Cid, the Alliance would be pretty screwed. They'd no doubt be at Shinryu's mercy, if not Omega's. Any successes against the Empire thus far have solely been the result of those two factors. In particular, Gyr Abania and Doma are backwater provinces on the Empire's outermost borders. Realistically, any unaided attempt to breach the Empire should result in a resolute thrashing of the Alliance, and probably will. That said, I think they will focus on something else for 5.0 to avoid beating the same horse.

[Lauront]

The world would be a lot flatter if some people got the Manichaean struggle they envision in their heads - and really, it exists only there - and the Empire were presented as unambiguously evil and removed, much like it would be flatter if the Empire succeeded in its aims. I really don't see what's hard to grasp about this. I want to visit Garlemald, I don't want to see it ruined, but rather I would like to see it scale back its war and come to terms with the city-states. I don't see the need for any more "revolutions", particularly if the existing regions are satisfied with how things are. Certainly, they could be a lot bloodier, and with many more unintended consequences if attempted next time round, however I am certain that the lore devs have the good sense for SB's to be the last.

You would go around and kill all beast man tribes (even those that you helped in the story and that does not want to create a primal), so you would be part of true Genocide. Then you would truly start to kill innocent people as the WoL and not only out of pure necessity or self-defense.

The DRK quest chains suggest that this is already the case.

[Alleo]

The DRK quest chains suggest that this is already the case.

I saw the fights in the quests and none of those were truly innocent or killed by us. We never did any kind of Genocide and all that we had to kill were fighting for what they saw as right but sadly still fought. Killing innocents would be like just going into a village like Yotsuyu, pointing a gun at them and just shoot them for the laughs. If we ever did something like that and not just killing because they attacked us or were doing stuff that would mean a worse outcome if we would not do it, then please help me out a bit and post those names. Maybe I am forgetting them and I am okay with proven to be wrong but at least I dont remember any true civilians that we just killed because we felt like it.

[NoblePigeon]

As I said before, I'd be all for Eorzea and Garlemald making peace and teaming up against the bigger bad, but the problem is that Emperor Zaris has made it pretty clear he intends on conquering Eorzea (and murdering every single beastman to get rid of primals), nothing less. Maybe that's changed by the end of 4.0's story, but we just don't know yet. And I'm pretty sure the Eorzeans are not going to agree to a permanent peace settlement that sees any sort of Imperial military presence in Eorzea.
That, among other factors, is going to lead to serious deadlocks in any permanent peace. Maybe a ceasefire, but that solves nothing.

[YianKutku]

And I'm pretty sure the Eorzeans are not going to agree to a permanent peace settlement that sees any sort of Imperial military presence in Eorzea.

There are already Imperial military presences in Eorzea. The Castrums show no signs of being abandoned, even though the people manning them (the XIVth Legion) are technically considered rogue to the Empire. How they are still being supplied and what sort of support they have from Garlemald is left undefined, even after all this time.

We can blame the time bubble for that, I suppose.

Obviously the Eorzean Alliance would like nothing better than to kick the Imperials out entirely, but even Operation Archon was only a massive coordinated strike, rather than a plan to take and occupy the Castrums. The only Castrum we are explicitly told to have occupied is Castrum Oriens.

For those keeping track:

- Castrum Oriens, with Baelsar's Wall, in the East Shroud. Sieged by the Twin Adders during Operation Archon. Taken over by the Eorzean Alliance at the end of 3.56. Mostly 3rd Cohort of the XIVth Legion.
- Castrum Occidens, in Eastern La Noscea, near Wineport. 2nd Cohort. Not much of interest here. Rhitatyn sas Arvina was in charge of this until we dogpiled him in Cape Westwind. Sieged by the Maelstrom during Operation Archon.
- Castrum Marinum, in the Rhotano Sea between Vylbrand and Aldenard. Mentioned in a Sightseeing Log. Allegedly resupplies Castrum Occidens, and Cape Westwind. Blockaded by the Lominsan Navy during Operation Archon.
- Cape Westwind, in Western Thanalan. Mostly 4th Cohort. Where we dogpiled Rhitatyn sas Arvina during Operation Archon.
- Castrum Centri, in Mor Dhona. Mostly 5th Cohort. The kidnapped Scions were brought here after the attack on the Waking Sands, and we broke them out. During Operation Archon, the Twin Adders blockaded the Phantom Train railway.
- Castrum Meridianum, in Northern Thanalan. Mostly 3rd (for some reason) and 7th Cohort. Primary HQ for the XIVth Legion, including the Praetorium. The infamous rush-through 8-man dungeons during Operation Archon.

All of these (with the obvious exception of Castrum Marinum) have Imperial troops wandering around. Even Castrum Oriens. Again, time bubble.

Back to the topic at hand, though, mostly the Eorzean Alliance wants to effectively tell Garlemald to stop being so terrible, and knock it off with the expansionism and conquering. I don't actually think it's important how this is achieved, only that it is achieved. If Varis suddenly has a change of heart and promises to treat his provinces better (ie with more oversight) and not threaten genocide or subjugation of everyone remotely capable of summoning a Primal (ie everyone, with the possible exception of pure-blooded Garleans), that will be the end of the matter. That is literally all the Eorzeans are asking for.