Healer adjustment in 4.05

[Furious]

Yet none of the top 10 fastest recorded clears runs double AST, if we're talking about SCH/Noct AST competing for the same raid slot with an AST as the co-healer. Nobody thinking about optimizing a raid comp would even consider double AST for a couple of key reasons. Output is non-comparable, you shoot yourself and your co in the foot percentile-wise in both HPS and DPS. You also forgot to mention Chain Strat which when buff stacking with a co's balance, BV, BL, TA, Hypercharge or whatever buffs your party throws up is exponential and more consistent.

They don't stack exponentially, they stack multiplicatively, and the effect of chain strat is not that amazing. Look at the damage output graphs you'll see that the peaks aren't astronomically higher than the trophs, certainly not to the heights that you'd expect from exponential growth. 15% multiplicative crit chance is simply not that great. Let's put it this way; the sam's crit chance seems to be around 22-24% overall which means his crit damage multiplier is around 57%. 15% multiplicative crit chance gives him a damage multiplier of approximately 5.3% (while it is up, not overall). Yes, this 5.3% is multiplied by other damage buffs that are active at the time, but it takes a lot of multipliers to make a low number into a not low number.

The raid dps during the initial period of chain stratagem is approximately double that after it; if we generously double the input of chain stratagem from 5.3% to 10.6%, with it's uptime of 45 seconds out of 5:45, or 13%, that means you've got a whopping 1.37% damage from chain strat, for that sam - and that is with a few particularly generous assumptions.

I don't know what you mean about more consistent, it would take incredible bad luck to have lower uptime on balance than on chain strat.

[LegoTechnic]

FFlogs takes away overheal, lol. It is subtracted and not calculated in the percentiles and numerical values listed, just like how it takes away overkill dps. Click the "raw healing" tab to include the excluded overheal. *facepalm*

Yes, I am aware of that? It's where I got the percentages from? My points still stand.

Also you should keep in mind that especially with the top parses, it's not that the other healers can't reach similar values, it's that they don't need to. They plan to maximize efficiency, and this is what you're seeing. In the second log especially the AST isn't reaching the same HPS because they simply don't have to, as they planned around Eos.

[Ghishlain]

I must be misunderstanding what you're saying, because what you proved in your analysis is that balance + ast is pretty much always more overall damage than whm can be given same relative skill between players in a group (and thus relatively uniform growth in dps between the ast/whm/total group dps). At best, the whm is nearly as good as the ast; at worst, it's nearly half the damage.

But, the quote you posted said "1) idc how bad you are your basic combo plus a balance of any potency will be more damage then a whm.", and you said he is completely wrong.. even though you proved him completely right? I feel like I'm either completely misunderstanding your post, or your misunderstood the person you quoted...

The only time a whm can compete with an ast on overall damage contribution in an 8-man group is if the healer's personal skill or gear (atleast in terms of damage contribution) is significantly higher than the group they are in.

My interpretation of the comment I responded to was "anyone jamming 1-2-3 combo and getting any level of balance (10%, 20%, 30%) would allow the AST to contribute more DPS than WHM - period, no matter what, or how". I just proved that a well played WHM could out do the AST contributions.

The thing about AST is that the DPS they provide is a function of the party's player skill. If DPS skill is well... average, a well played WHM can exceed the DPS gained from playing AST at a lower skill level due to comfort level.

As a more direct example, a 1600 DPS WHM would be able to contribute more than a AST who gives 800DPS and can provide a Expanded Balance uptime of 33.3% on a 16,000DPS group (combined total DPS is 1,128).

To me, anyone jamming 1-2-3 combo all day every day would probably be less than a 50th precentile DPS on logs and effectively reducing the AST contribution through Balance by more than half in my above example.

[edit] Just to be clear - at the highest levels of play on the logs, AST's contribution is ridiculously high thanks to the skill level being played at that skill tier. AST at that tier will definitely outshine WHM (by a fair margin if you look at my previous post - 13% is nothing to scoff at).

However, for the average midcore raider, that "contribution" starts to enter a grey area. Hence my comment that it's important for people to play what they're comfortable with as they'll generally perform better on those roles.

[CreinCrein]

Chain Strategem is a flat 15% crit chance increase. Also I've already proven my point, eos and sch ogcds are still strong enough to be a backbone to an entire healing composition while nocturnal has nothing even remotely close.

[GDFletcher]

Adjustment Details:
■Scholar
・The introduction of “Miasma II” as a job specific skill.
・Changed the cooldown of Emergency Tactics to 20 seconds.
・Indomitability [stay tuned]
・Strengthening Excogitation.
・Changed the range of Fey Union to 15 malms.
・ Aetherpact has been changed to increase Faerie Gauge even when Aetherflow actions does not inflict an effect on the target.
・Introduction of a trait reducing the cooldown of Aetherflow.

■Astrologian
・Arcana and Royal Road cards can now be discarded via an action.

■White Mage
・Adjustments to the rate of which Healing Lilies are granted.
・Plenary Indulgence will see some major adjustments.


SCH seem good so far but i think there will be more . AST get another buff

AST dont get a buff at all, SE screwed up not allowing us to discard the Royal Road effect cards, which now requires a Skill to do what a simple mouse click did before.

[LegoTechnic]

Chain Strategem is a flat 15% crit chance increase. Also I've already proven my point, eos and sch ogcds are still strong enough to be a backbone to an entire healing composition while nocturnal has nothing even remotely close.

Nocturnal can just as easily fill the same role. They don't because if you still need two healers for content (ie, can't single-heal), then if you bring a SCH for Chain Strategem and Eos its SCH shields cannot stack with Noct AST's so going that route is a little disagreeable. It's less a factor of what a Noct AST can do, and more that the NoctAST/SCH pair just does not synergize with shields in the slightest.

[Tashim]

Your math is off. Its 575:300 base 575:600 crit, 900 SCH crit is adding in the heal but not the crit potency addition. 862 i think is trying to account for the crit potency addition but not the base heal. Since the base heal would make it 805v900 if neither have crits effect on the base heal in consideration.
But rougly the math should look like AST: (230*CPot)*2.5 = SPot, SCH: (300*CPot)*2 = SPot, so your looking at balancing 575*CPot to 600*CPot and Crit Potency is below 200% now in SB how much I'm not sure.

You'll find that my math is perfectly accurate once you account for the crit potency.
I didn't spell it all out in this post, but its pretty simple.
sch shield potency is 300. crit potency is 50%. crit shield is 300*1.5*2.0 = 900
ast shield potency is 200*1.15*2.5 =575. crit is 1.5 more, 862.5.

crit potency seems to be a set 50% in SB, while in HW it scaled with crit rating, it was easy to have more than 50% potency with high crit. That seems to no longer be the case, but I'll need to get more crit rating to properly test it.

[CreinCrein]

Nocturnal can just as easily fill the same role. They don't because if you still need two healers for content (ie, can't single-heal), then if you bring a SCH for Chain Strategem and Eos its SCH shields cannot stack with Noct AST's so going that route is a little disagreeable. It's less a factor of what a Noct AST can do, and more that the NoctAST/SCH pair just does not synergize with shields in the slightest.

Show me a noct AST doing 3000 hps while doing 98+th percentile dps, I can already tell you it doesn't exist. Not even remotely close, only possible when you're mainhealing in diurnal in which case you'd have a SCH co with eos assisting you. Also . . . what? We're talking about N.Ast and SCH competing for the same raid slot. Bringing up N.Ast/Sch is just straight up memeing.

[LegoTechnic]

Show me a noct AST doing 3000 hps while doing 98+th percentile dps, I can already tell you it doesn't exist. Not even remotely close, only possible when you're mainhealing in diurnal in which case you'd have a SCH co with eos assisting you. Also . . . what? We're talking about N.Ast and SCH competing for the same raid slot. Bringing up N.Ast/Sch is just straight up memeing.

Never leave the world you live in. It seems a fun place.

If you're looking for a parse where a Noct AST is playing the DPS role then you have to look at an AST/AST parse, because in situations where it's WHM/NoctAST it is almost always preferable for the WHM to DPS over the AST due to both better potency and better mana management. AST's primary DPS contribution is in its card buffs which mostly outshine its individual benefits, so having it attempt personal DPS benchmarks is less optimal than it would be for any other healer. There's nothing outright wrong with this because the card buffs are simply that good, but if personal showing on fflogs is the center of your concerns then I'm afraid that is something you may just have to accept.

[CreinCrein]

I was speaking from the context of having a diurnal AST as a co-healer, while the open spot was to be a discussion between N.Ast and SCH. Your track record- claiming I was exaggerating when you didn't put effort to look at the logs to see otherwise. Using resource-less over-heal as an argument when it just proved my point further. Answer this one question though: why aren't top statics pushing the edge of what is optimally possible using either WHM/AST or AST/AST more frequently if either of those comps have any merit. Players that exceed your experience and skill. Prove me wrong. List some parses, logs ANY evidence at all.